Re: Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
Ray Setzer <[email protected]> Thu, 19 Jul 2007 08:46:13 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--2TXgam3WuRbHVXVSwjZ4IIZ7kxnOhbz8D2zmaKl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your sort of missing the point. There is no argument over whether a stated houserule should or should not be enforced. It has move on into the general gallery of opinion whether particular points of syntax and the philosophy of whether to include them or in strict interpretation into houserules or not. eric grinnell wrote: > I have read blessed little of this thread, and I have read so little of it for a very simple reason: it's nothing new. Every dip community I have ever been a member of has had to go through this every now and again -- with any luck, less than once every year or two. > > The impetus is always the same: > > Someone who doesn't understand that there are RULES -- or someone who understands that there are rules, but doesn't CARE -- whines after feeling jilted by a seasonal post wherein a GM orders a misorder in a way that is consistent with the rules. Generally speaking, the player usually understand that the misorder is, in fact, consistent with the rules... but nonetheless thinks one of the following things: > > 1) It's a stupid rule, and should be disregarded. > 2) That their position in the game is so pivotal, that protecting it from the folly of pointless misorder is more imoprtant than following the rules. > 3) That they don't care about any highminded discussion of the topic, and simply want their way. And further, they think that if they whine long enough, loudly enough, to the right people, and disrupt the game horribly enough, they will get their way. --- This goal pursued with total disregard to what damage it does to the game, the hobby, the GMs reputation... or the other players' opinions of the game, the hobby, or the GMs reputation. (Or their own.) > > I can criticize all of these rationales personally, because I have pursued all of them at some point or other in my 15 year history in this hobby. I have been at times successful, and other times failed... but my successes do not justify my abuses, and this is my redemption. I have also dealt with all these same issues as a GM, and this is my opportunity in a neutral environment where I am not embroiled in a conflict to tell people to grow the hell up. > > A more detailed discussion to follow, but I would like to address the three ratinoales listed above in the same order I listed them: > > 1) Whether the rule is stupid or not, it's not as stupid as an idiotic misorder... especially when you have usually a week in PBEM to write your orders and review them. The ONLY excuse for a misorder in PBEM is procrastination, lack of attention to detail, or stupidity... none of which gathers any sympathy from me. If stupid was painful, the world would quickly become a much better place. > 2) You're not that important, get over yourself. In fact, with few exceptions, no one cares about the misorder but you, unless you took some ally down with you. And in any such event, you yourself should be punished for being a second rate player -- hopefully with the eventual outcome that you become more thorough at writing your orders. And your ally should walk away from the incident with new insights about the value of choosing sound tacticians as their allies. > 3) You should just be shot. Anyone who is ever caught doing this should have a big red "A" (For "Asshole") branded into their forehead. > > In all honesty, I think that the discussion of whether or not a screwed up unit identifier is a misorder or not is ridiculous. It ALWAYS is. In any face to face tournament or con I have ever been to, it is. If you try to plug the order with the wrong unit identifier into RealPolitik, Realpolitik calls it an invalid order, and the unit remains unordered. This would be because RealPolitik was written so as to FOLLOW THE RULES. Pretty clear. Pretty unambiguous. Scratch that. There's no "pretty" to any of it. It is undeniably and incontrovertibly clear and unambiguous that an order which uses the incorrect unit identifier is a misorder and the unit should hold. > > There is, of course, all the argument over how the GM shouldn't be a mindreader... shouldn't have to guess if it's an intentional "oops" misorder written to fool an "ally," or if it was truly a misorder. I agree entirely that this goes beyond the scope of a GM's job, and also potentially compromises their neutrality. > > Similarly, a GM shouldn't be expected to follow up after people and wipe their ass, and tell them to fix their misorders prior to posting. Some do that, and if you appreciate them for it, send them a christmas card. Personally, I think it's a bad thing to do. Idiots should be frustrated and discouraged from continuing in the hobby -- not wetnursed along. And -- my unique and toxic style of editorialism aside -- it's also a horrible thing for the GM to do, since it once again compromises their objectivity and neutrality. As a player, how would you feel if you knew a GM had written someone ELSE on the board and corrected their misorder, but then when YOU had a misorder, they missed it, and you had a misordered unit holding? Would you find it fair? I know I would find it quite unfair indeed. > > The only topic which warrants any REAL discussion, in my opinion is whether or not units without any unit identifier at all should be a valid order or not. I think the majority opinion is that such orders are valid. I personally disagree, on the grouds that laziness and lack of attention, in a game such as this, is a fatal flaw that should not be encouraged or accommodated. But I gave up the fight long ago. I'll take that particular point either way .... which is what makes it a PERFECT thing to include in houserules. > > Oh, hey.... houserules. Let's talk about houserules. No... let's not talk about houserules, just yet. Let's talk about GM's first. GMs, gentlemen, are VOLUNTEERS. As such, let's give them a little deferrence and respect. Major deviations from the rules should not be allowed, unless for a specific purpose that is openly discussed and clearly understood by all prior to the game beginning. However, most tweaks to the rules that are written into house orders are minor ones, and usually are included for the convenience of the GM or to fit the game HE is running within his conceptual model of how the game is to be played. Consider it like a contract. Major deviations or abuses should not be tolerated by the community as a whole and shuold therefore be overturned, but minor ones are between the offeror (GM), and the offerees (players). Contracts are entered into freely, and if you don't like somerthing about it, you should modify prior to entering into the contract > (joining the game). If you try and the GM refuses to change the house rules..... and if you care that much, I urge you to go find another game. It's very hard (and pointless) to try to fire a volunteer. Trying to change the houserules AFTER the game starts.... is quite simply put, an attempted breach of contract. (Which brings us back to the red branded "A" on the foreead.) > > All any of this madness does for me is make me think that I will require people to use RealPolitk for all the games I GM, and further require that players send me orders copied and pasted from RealPolitik. The darn software can run on wnidows 3.0 --heck, for all I know, it could probably run on DOS 5.0-- so there's no reason that anything less than EVERYONE in the hobby should have it. Those who want to join the game without using RealPolitik, would do so at their own peril, because any questionable misorder would simply be plugged into RealPolitik, and I would do with it whatever RealPolitk says. And, just for the record, RealPolitik loves to declare invalid orders. If you play with it, you'll find out what I did: it's not at all because the software has quirks; it's because the software follows the RULES. > > Objective, neutral, and follows the rules explicitly. Wow, what an original concept, huh? I urge you all to consider it your first course of action for running or playing in a game. Call me crazy, but it seems to me that that's the best way to run a game. > > Anyone who wants to disagree..... before you come to me to discuss it, figure out which of my three "rationales" discussed above you fall into. We'll start t he conversation from there. > > > Misordering ALL of you and placing you in Civil Disorder, with all the respect I can muster: > -Eric S. Grinnell > > > > 3.com> wrote: > > > Former Trout wrote: >> But to carry this argument further, then there would be no problem with a >> misorder at all. A player could have a fleet in the North Sea and order F >> Nth -> Nor. Now which zone does he mean - Norway or Norwegian Sea? This is >> precisely why in the rules it states that an order with two possible >> meanings should be invalid. Simplicity is thus limited by the rulebook, and >> rightly so. > > You really don't see the difference? > >> What is to be gained by this house rule? It takes away another instance >> where the GM is required to 'interpret' player orders. In my mind, the more >> of these instances you can eliminate, the better. No matter what the >> situation, when a GM has to interpret player orders then one player gains >> and another player loses based on a GM's opinion. As a player myself, I >> find that inherently unfair. As a GM, I find it an impossible situation to >> win in - no matter what you decide, one player will be rewarded and another >> punished. >> >> I agree with this strict approach, controversy is bound to follow. However, >> as many have pointed out, the proper time to object to this house rule is >> prior to game start when players review the house rules. Not during the >> middle of the game when the player is affected by it. > > Because in one instance people would be playing a Diplomacy game, and in > another it would be a spelling bee. It assumes that the object of the > game is to conform most tightly to a specific syntax. And if such is the > case, then the game should simply be run on a judge. > >> Trout >> >> On 7/18/07, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Some of you guys would really make great senators.... >>> >>> This entire issue boils down to two things.? Almost all of us have >>> acknowledged that Trout's house rules were stated beforehand, and that he >>> was correct to adjudicate the way he has.? He really has no choice but to do >>> so.?? With that out of the way the only thing remaining is a question of >>> what exactly is gained by having a house rule so written.? In my view the >>> ONLY thing gained by this is instances of controversy like this.? There is >>> no benefit to be had by ruling the order in question? invalid.? Part of the >>> natural beauty of this game is it's simplicity. When we write our house >>> rules, isn't it best to keep this in mind? >>> >>> As someone else correctly pointed out, the overwhelming majority of >>> occurences of this scenario are going to be the result of a typo.?Are we >>> really interested in being that focused on invalidating an order on a >>> typo??? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Adam Kuehn <[email protected] <akuehn%40nc.rr.com>> >>> To: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com> >>> Sent: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:13 pm >>> Subject: RE: [CAT23-GM] Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions >>> >>> Steph Mabie writes: >>> >>>> Bear in mind that A & F are English designations for the >>>> generally accepted (and official) pieces of the game (Army & >>>> Fleet). Could "F" >>>> stand for "Force?" Could "A" stand for "Armada?" It is >>>> plausible, in either case, that the A or F could stand for >>>> either type of unit, and without asking the player exactly >>>> what he meant, the GM cannot know. >>> I'm sorry, but I reject this argument. Assuming you are conducting the >>> game >>> in English, the "A" to mean "army" and the "F" to mean "fleet" are >>> explicitly defined in the rulebook. It completely stretches credibility to >>> assert that "A", when used as a unit designation, is somehow ambiguous. >>> >>> It is reasonable to recognize, however, that unit designation mistakes are >>> 1. relatively easy to make, and 2. hard to spot once made. Also, the >>> rulebook does not explicitly require the use of unit designations at all >>> (although all the sample orders use them). Therefore, I don't have a >>> problem with someone concluding it is therefore less disruptive to the >>> game >>> to ignore unit designations Which is what you are doing by assuming: >>> >>>> [W]hen a player names an area occupied by that player, >>>> no matter what unit designation is used -- he wants that unit to do >>>> something. >>> That's a legitimate human factors argument. But ambiguous? No, "A Lon" is >>> not ambiguous in the least. It clearly does not "admit of two meanings". >>> >>>> If he happens to misorder it otherwise -- telling an army >>>> to move to sea, or a fleet inland, or affecting a space it can >>>> otherwise not affect (ie, A Lon - Ber), then fine. Poorly written? >>>> Very much so. Illegal? Not in my opinion. >>> I would hold up "A Lon - Ber" as the very definition of an illegal order. >>> Did I misread you? >>> >>>> [O]ne of the other players (who, as it >>>> happened, was Edi Birsan) pointed out that since "Swe - Nor" could >>>> have only one possible legal interpretation, it should have been >>>> considered a legal move. >>> I want to make sure we're clear on the phrasing. "Swe - Nor" has only one >>> possible interpretation which results in a legal move. That's different >>> from saying that "Swe - Nor" has one possible legal interpretation. That >>> difference can be important depending upon how you construe the sentence >>> in >>> the rulebook which says, "An order which admits of two meanings is not >>> followed." Does an order which has two or more possible interpretations, >>> only one of which results in a legal move, "admit of two meanings"? The >>> answer to that question resolves a great many misorder disputes. >>> Unfortunately for us, the rulebook doesn't explicitly answer it. Which is >>> why we have the Model House Rules. >>> >>> -Adam >>> >>> Community email addresses: >>> Post message: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40onelist.com> >>> Subscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com> >>> Unsubscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com> >>> List owner: [email protected] <CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com> >>> >>> Shortcut URL to this page: >>> http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free >>> from AOL at AOL.com. >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> Community email addresses: >> Post message: [email protected] >> Subscribe: [email protected] >> Unsubscribe: [email protected] >> List owner: [email protected] >> >> Shortcut URL to this page: >> http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Community email addresses: > Post message: [email protected] > Subscribe: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: [email protected] > List owner: [email protected] > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > --2TXgam3WuRbHVXVSwjZ4IIZ7kxnOhbz8D2zmaKl Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>Your sort of missing the point. There is no argument over whether a <br> stated houserule should or should not be enforced. It has move on into <br> the general gallery of opinion whether particular points of syntax and <br> the philosophy of whether to include them or in strict interpretation <br> into houserules or not.<br> <br> eric grinnell wrote:<br> > I have read blessed little of this thread, and I have read so little of it for a very simple reason: it's nothing new. Every dip community I have ever been a member of has had to go through this every now and again -- with any luck, less than once every year or two.<br> > <br> > The impetus is always the same:<br> > <br> > Someone who doesn't understand that there are RULES -- or someone who understands that there are rules, but doesn't CARE -- whines after feeling jilted by a seasonal post wherein a GM orders a misorder in a way that is consistent with the rules. Generally speaking, the player usually understand that the misorder is, in fact, consistent with the rules... but nonetheless thinks one of the following things:<br> > <br> > 1) It's a stupid rule, and should be disregarded.<br> > 2) That their position in the game is so pivotal, that protecting it from the folly of pointless misorder is more imoprtant than following the rules.<br> > 3) That they don't care about any highminded discussion of the topic, and simply want their way. And further, they think that if they whine long enough, loudly enough, to the right people, and disrupt the game horribly enough, they will get their way. --- This goal pursued with total disregard to what damage it does to the game, the hobby, the GMs reputation..<wbr>. or the other players' opinions of the game, the hobby, or the GMs reputation. (Or their own.)<br> > <br> > I can criticize all of these rationales personally, because I have pursued all of them at some point or other in my 15 year history in this hobby. I have been at times successful, and other times failed... but my successes do not justify my abuses, and this is my redemption. I have also dealt with all these same issues as a GM, and this is my opportunity in a neutral environment where I am not embroiled in a conflict to tell people to grow the hell up.<br> > <br> > A more detailed discussion to follow, but I would like to address the three ratinoales listed above in the same order I listed them:<br> > <br> > 1) Whether the rule is stupid or not, it's not as stupid as an idiotic misorder... especially when you have usually a week in PBEM to write your orders and review them. The ONLY excuse for a misorder in PBEM is procrastination, lack of attention to detail, or stupidity... none of which gathers any sympathy from me. If stupid was painful, the world would quickly become a much better place.<br> > 2) You're not that important, get over yourself. In fact, with few exceptions, no one cares about the misorder but you, unless you took some ally down with you. And in any such event, you yourself should be punished for being a second rate player -- hopefully with the eventual outcome that you become more thorough at writing your orders. And your ally should walk away from the incident with new insights about the value of choosing sound tacticians as their allies.<br> > 3) You should just be shot. Anyone who is ever caught doing this should have a big red "A" (For "Asshole") branded into their forehead.<br> > <br> > In all honesty, I think that the discussion of whether or not a screwed up unit identifier is a misorder or not is ridiculous. It ALWAYS is. In any face to face tournament or con I have ever been to, it is. If you try to plug the order with the wrong unit identifier into RealPolitik, Realpolitik calls it an invalid order, and the unit remains unordered. This would be because RealPolitik was written so as to FOLLOW THE RULES. Pretty clear. Pretty unambiguous. Scratch that. There's no "pretty" to any of it. It is undeniably and incontrovertibly clear and unambiguous that an order which uses the incorrect unit identifier is a misorder and the unit should hold.<br> > <br> > There is, of course, all the argument over how the GM shouldn't be a mindreader..<wbr>. shouldn't have to guess if it's an intentional "oops" misorder written to fool an "ally," or if it was truly a misorder. I agree entirely that this goes beyond the scope of a GM's job, and also potentially compromises their neutrality. <br> > <br> > Similarly, a GM shouldn't be expected to follow up after people and wipe their ass, and tell them to fix their misorders prior to posting. Some do that, and if you appreciate them for it, send them a christmas card. Personally, I think it's a bad thing to do. Idiots should be frustrated and discouraged from continuing in the hobby -- not wetnursed along. And -- my unique and toxic style of editorialism aside -- it's also a horrible thing for the GM to do, since it once again compromises their objectivity and neutrality. As a player, how would you feel if you knew a GM had written someone ELSE on the board and corrected their misorder, but then when YOU had a misorder, they missed it, and you had a misordered unit holding? Would you find it fair? I know I would find it quite unfair indeed.<br> > <br> > The only topic which warrants any REAL discussion, in my opinion is whether or not units without any unit identifier at all should be a valid order or not. I think the majority opinion is that such orders are valid. I personally disagree, on the grouds that laziness and lack of attention, in a game such as this, is a fatal flaw that should not be encouraged or accommodated. But I gave up the fight long ago. I'll take that particular point either way .... which is what makes it a PERFECT thing to include in houserules.<br> > <br> > Oh, hey.... houserules. Let's talk about houserules. No... let's not talk about houserules, just yet. Let's talk about GM's first. GMs, gentlemen, are VOLUNTEERS. As such, let's give them a little deferrence and respect. Major deviations from the rules should not be allowed, unless for a specific purpose that is openly discussed and clearly understood by all prior to the game beginning. However, most tweaks to the rules that are written into house orders are minor ones, and usually are included for the convenience of the GM or to fit the game HE is running within his conceptual model of how the game is to be played. Consider it like a contract. Major deviations or abuses should not be tolerated by the community as a whole and shuold therefore be overturned, but minor ones are between the offeror (GM), and the offerees (players). Contracts are entered into freely, and if you don't like somerthing about it, you should modify prior to entering into the contract<br> > (joining the game). If you try and the GM refuses to change the house rules..... and if you care that much, I urge you to go find another game. It's very hard (and pointless) to try to fire a volunteer. Trying to change the houserules AFTER the game starts.... is quite simply put, an attempted breach of contract. (Which brings us back to the red branded "A" on the foreead.)<br> > <br> > All any of this madness does for me is make me think that I will require people to use RealPolitk for all the games I GM, and further require that players send me orders copied and pasted from RealPolitik. The darn software can run on wnidows 3.0 --heck, for all I know, it could probably run on DOS 5.0-- so there's no reason that anything less than EVERYONE in the hobby should have it. Those who want to join the game without using RealPolitik, would do so at their own peril, because any questionable misorder would simply be plugged into RealPolitik, and I would do with it whatever RealPolitk says. And, just for the record, RealPolitik loves to declare invalid orders. If you play with it, you'll find out what I did: it's not at all because the software has quirks; it's because the software follows the RULES.<br> > <br> > Objective, neutral, and follows the rules explicitly. Wow, what an original concept, huh? I urge you all to consider it your first course of action for running or playing in a game. Call me crazy, but it seems to me that that's the best way to run a game.<br> > <br> > Anyone who wants to disagree....<wbr>. before you come to me to discuss it, figure out which of my three "rationales" discussed above you fall into. We'll start t he conversation from there.<br> > <br> > <br> > Misordering ALL of you and placing you in Civil Disorder, with all the respect I can muster:<br> > -Eric S. Grinnell<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > 3.com> wrote:<br> > <br> > <br> > Former Trout wrote:<br> >> But to carry this argument further, then there would be no problem with a<br> >> misorder at all. A player could have a fleet in the North Sea and order F<br> >> Nth -> Nor. Now which zone does he mean - Norway or Norwegian Sea? This is<br> >> precisely why in the rules it states that an order with two possible<br> >> meanings should be invalid. Simplicity is thus limited by the rulebook, and<br> >> rightly so.<br> > <br> > You really don't see the difference?<br> > <br> >> What is to be gained by this house rule? It takes away another instance<br> >> where the GM is required to 'interpret' player orders. In my mind, the more<br> >> of these instances you can eliminate, the better. No matter what the<br> >> situation, when a GM has to interpret player orders then one player gains<br> >> and another player loses based on a GM's opinion. As a player myself, I<br> >> find that inherently unfair. As a GM, I find it an impossible situation to<br> >> win in - no matter what you decide, one player will be rewarded and another<br> >> punished.<br> >><br> >> I agree with this strict approach, controversy is bound to follow. However,<br> >> as many have pointed out, the proper time to object to this house rule is<br> >> prior to game start when players review the house rules. Not during the<br> >> middle of the game when the player is affected by it.<br> > <br> > Because in one instance people would be playing a Diplomacy game, and in <br> > another it would be a spelling bee. It assumes that the object of the <br> > game is to conform most tightly to a specific syntax. And if such is the <br> > case, then the game should simply be run on a judge.<br> > <br> >> Trout<br> >><br> >> On 7/18/07, <a href="mailto:RUFFHAUS8%40aol.com">RUFFHAUS8@aol.<wbr>com</a> <<a href="mailto:RUFFHAUS8%40aol.com">RUFFHAUS8@aol.<wbr>com</a>> wrote:<br> >>> Some of you guys would really make great senators....<br> >>><br> >>> This entire issue boils down to two things.? Almost all of us have<br> >>> acknowledged that Trout's house rules were stated beforehand, and that he<br> >>> was correct to adjudicate the way he has.? He really has no choice but to do<br> >>> so.?? With that out of the way the only thing remaining is a question of<br> >>> what exactly is gained by having a house rule so written.? In my view the<br> >>> ONLY thing gained by this is instances of controversy like this.? There is<br> >>> no benefit to be had by ruling the order in question? invalid.? Part of the<br> >>> natural beauty of this game is it's simplicity. When we write our house<br> >>> rules, isn't it best to keep this in mind?<br> >>><br> >>> As someone else correctly pointed out, the overwhelming majority of<br> >>> occurences of this scenario are going to be the result of a typo.?Are we<br> >>> really interested in being that focused on invalidating an order on a<br> >>> typo???<br> >>><br> >>> -----Original Message-----<br> >>> From: Adam Kuehn <<a href="mailto:akuehn%40nc.rr.com">[email protected].<wbr>com</a> <akuehn%40nc.<wbr>rr.com>><br> >>> To: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <CAT23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><br> >>> Sent: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:13 pm<br> >>> Subject: RE: [CAT23-GM] Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> >>><br> >>> Steph Mabie writes:<br> >>><br> >>>> Bear in mind that A & F are English designations for the<br> >>>> generally accepted (and official) pieces of the game (Army &<br> >>>> Fleet). Could "F"<br> >>>> stand for "Force?" Could "A" stand for "Armada?" It is<br> >>>> plausible, in either case, that the A or F could stand for<br> >>>> either type of unit, and without asking the player exactly<br> >>>> what he meant, the GM cannot know.<br> >>> I'm sorry, but I reject this argument. Assuming you are conducting the<br> >>> game<br> >>> in English, the "A" to mean "army" and the "F" to mean "fleet" are<br> >>> explicitly defined in the rulebook. It completely stretches credibility to<br> >>> assert that "A", when used as a unit designation, is somehow ambiguous.<br> >>><br> >>> It is reasonable to recognize, however, that unit designation mistakes are<br> >>> 1. relatively easy to make, and 2. hard to spot once made. Also, the<br> >>> rulebook does not explicitly require the use of unit designations at all<br> >>> (although all the sample orders use them). Therefore, I don't have a<br> >>> problem with someone concluding it is therefore less disruptive to the<br> >>> game<br> >>> to ignore unit designations Which is what you are doing by assuming:<br> >>><br> >>>> [W]hen a player names an area occupied by that player,<br> >>>> no matter what unit designation is used -- he wants that unit to do<br> >>>> something.<br> >>> That's a legitimate human factors argument. But ambiguous? No, "A Lon" is<br> >>> not ambiguous in the least. It clearly does not "admit of two meanings".<br> >>><br> >>>> If he happens to misorder it otherwise -- telling an army<br> >>>> to move to sea, or a fleet inland, or affecting a space it can<br> >>>> otherwise not affect (ie, A Lon - Ber), then fine. Poorly written?<br> >>>> Very much so. Illegal? Not in my opinion.<br> >>> I would hold up "A Lon - Ber" as the very definition of an illegal order.<br> >>> Did I misread you?<br> >>><br> >>>> [O]ne of the other players (who, as it<br> >>>> happened, was Edi Birsan) pointed out that since "Swe - Nor" could<br> >>>> have only one possible legal interpretation, it should have been<br> >>>> considered a legal move.<br> >>> I want to make sure we're clear on the phrasing. "Swe - Nor" has only one<br> >>> possible interpretation which results in a legal move. That's different<br> >>> from saying that "Swe - Nor" has one possible legal interpretation. That<br> >>> difference can be important depending upon how you construe the sentence<br> >>> in<br> >>> the rulebook which says, "An order which admits of two meanings is not<br> >>> followed." Does an order which has two or more possible interpretations,<br> >>> only one of which results in a legal move, "admit of two meanings"? The<br> >>> answer to that question resolves a great many misorder disputes.<br> >>> Unfortunately for us, the rulebook doesn't explicitly answer it. Which is<br> >>> why we have the Model House Rules.<br> >>><br> >>> -Adam<br> >>><br> >>> Community email addresses:<br> >>> Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a> <CAT23-GM%40onelist<wbr>.com><br> >>> Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><CAT23-GM-subscribe<wbr>%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> >>> Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><CAT23-GM-unsubscri<wbr>be%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> >>> List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a> <CAT23-GM-owner%<wbr>40onelist.<wbr>com><br> >>><br> >>> Shortcut URL to this page:<br> >>> <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a><br> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links<br> >>><br> >>> ____________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_<br> >>> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free<br> >>> from AOL at AOL.com.<br> >>><br> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> >>><br> >>><br> >>><br> >><br> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >> Community email addresses:<br> >> Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a><br> >> Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><br> >> Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><br> >> List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a><br> >><br> >> Shortcut URL to this page:<br> >> <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a> <br> >> Yahoo! Groups Links<br> >><br> >><br> >><br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > ------------<wbr>---------<wbr>---------<wbr>---<br> > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.<br> > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.<br> > <br> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > Community email addresses:<br> > Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a><br> > Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><br> > Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><br> > List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a><br> > <br> > Shortcut URL to this page:<br> > <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a> <br> > Yahoo! Groups Links<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span> <!-- Start the section with Message In topic --> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <span class="left"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/message/5546;_ylc=X3oDMTMzYzVwbHFoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU3NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExODQ4NTI0NjUEdHBjSWQDNTU0Ng--"> Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>) </span> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvM2hwYWprBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU3NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExODQ4NTI0NjU-?act=reply&messageNum=5575"> <span class="bld"> Reply </span> (via web post) </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYWNkanBsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTg0ODUyNDY1" class="bld"> Start a new topic </a> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbTB1M3R0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMTg0ODUyNDY1">Messages</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOXJsOXJmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDg1MjQ2NQ--">Files</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNTI1ZmdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMTg0ODUyNDY1">Photos</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaTJpbWcxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDg1MjQ2NQ--">Links</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJiY2VyZ2phBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDg1MjQ2NQ--">Database</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJla3JkdjM0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDg1MjQ2NQ--">Polls</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkODczdjc4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMTg0ODUyNDY1">Members</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjaWdydTQxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzExODQ4NTI0NjU-">Calendar</a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- Do not have place to put it yet --> <div id="ygrp-grft"> </div> <!-- yahoo logo --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNXJ0NzloBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzExODQ4NTI0NjU-"> <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJldHZqNTNmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDc3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDg1MjQ2NQ--">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br> Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM;_ylc=X3oDMTJjOGJxMGZhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDaHBmBHN0aW1lAzExODQ4NTI0NjU-"> Visit Your Group </a> | <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"> Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject="> Unsubscribe </a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> </div> <!-- ygrp-msg --> <!-- Sponsor --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:140px;float: left; clear: none; margin-left: 5px; background:white; margin-bottom:25px ;position:absolute; top:0; right: 0;"> <!-- Network content --> <!-- Start vitality --> <div id="ygrp-vital"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM2Y2ODhvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmdocARzdGltZQMxMTg0ODUyNDY1"> Visit Your Group </a> </div> <div id="hd">SPONSORED LINKS</div> <div id="ov"> <ul> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiZjBjdXVhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDg1MjQ2NQ--?t=ms&k=Computer+role+playing+game&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=7agTNLWYkq5ObrM_HxMI9g">Computer role playing game</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJidHFmMXM2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDg1MjQ2NQ--?t=ms&k=Free+online+role+playing+games&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=4QpHlVvE7Ux1Po9XJHI3Mw">Free online role playing games</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiNXVnZDFoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDg1MjQ2NQ--?t=ms&k=Diplomacy+game&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=o0Wl2D10ICbvYeRsM70Zvg">Diplomacy game</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiZHI4OGJuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzQEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDg1MjQ2NQ--?t=ms&k=Online+role+playing+games&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=W1gqeu5BSpDhAVOPii3JUQ">Online role playing games</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiZ3FhYW1kBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDg1MjQ2NQ--?t=ms&k=Role+playing+games&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=XP57S-KjFJ8G03Tn-gmSJQ">Role playing games</a></li> </ul> </div> <!-- Network content --> <div id="nc"> <div class="ad"> <div id="hd1">Yahoo! Movies</div> <p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jncfnh9/M=493064.10729667.11333358.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184859665/A=3848591/R=0/SIG=1215ncbpe/*http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/changeloc?p=sho&date=20060707">Up for a movie?</a></p> <p>Check out showtimes</p> <p>and buy tickets</p> </div> <div class="ad"> <div id="hd1">Yahoo! News</div> <p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12j06m550/M=493064.10729659.11333350.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184859665/A=3848607/R=0/SIG=10q7s9jm5/*http://hotzone.yahoo.com">Kevin Sites</a></p> <p>Get coverage of</p> <p>world crises.</p> </div> <div class="ad"> <div id="hd1">Yahoo! Avatars</div> <p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jlv5mud/M=493064.10729655.11333346.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184859665/A=3848516/R=0/SIG=10qidb854/*http://avatars.yahoo.com">Express Yourself</a></p> <p>Show your face in</p> <p>Messenger & more.</p> </div> </div> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=360269/grpspId=1705057147/msgId=5575/stime=1184852465/nc1=3848591/nc2=3848607/nc3=3848516" width="1" height="1"> <br> <span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </body> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <head> <style type="text/css"> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin: 0 0 1em 0; } #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family: Arial; clear: both; } #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top: 10px; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 77%; margin: 0; } #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding: 0 1px; } #ygrp-actbar{ clear: both; margin: 25px 0; white-space:nowrap; color: #666; text-align: right; } #ygrp-actbar .left{ float: left; white-space:nowrap; } .bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family: Verdana; font-size: 77%; padding: 15px 0; } #ygrp-ft{ font-family: verdana; font-size: 77%; border-top: 1px solid #666; padding: 5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-vital{ background-color: #e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 2px 0 8px 8px; } #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size: 77%; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; } #ygrp-vital ul{ padding: 0; margin: 2px 0; } #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type: none; clear: both; border: 1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight: bold; color: #ff7900; float: right; width: 2em; text-align:right; padding-right: .5em; } #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight: bold; } #ygrp-vital a { text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration: underline; } #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color: #999; font-size: 77%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding: 6px 13px; background-color: #e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding: 0 0 0 8px; margin: 0; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type: square; padding: 6px 0; font-size: 77%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration: none; font-size: 130%; } #ygrp-sponsor #nc { background-color: #eee; margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 0 8px; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding: 8px 0; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: #628c2a; font-size: 100%; line-height: 122%; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration: underline; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin: 0; } o {font-size: 0; } .MsoNormal { margin: 0 0 0 0; } #ygrp-text tt{ font-size: 120%; } blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;} .replbq {margin:4} --> </style> </head> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </html><!--End group email --> --2TXgam3WuRbHVXVSwjZ4IIZ7kxnOhbz8D2zmaKl--