Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
The White Wolf <[email protected]> Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:24:44 -0700 (PDT)
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Eric,
Whatever personal problems I have had with you in
the past, I'd like to publicly apologize for them.
This post is, in more straightforward language than I
would ever use, almost exactly how I feel about this
topic. You may be abrasive, but you're right. I do,
however, feel the need to play Devil's Advocate on one
point: the potential requirement that all players use
RealPolitik.
I agree that the use of RP would make everybody's
lives a lot easier, and I *encourage* all my players
to use it. I do not, however, *require* it of them.
That would be tantamount to using a Judge, would it
not? Why even involve the human GM at all, if you're
going to leave 100% of the adjudication up to a
program?
Now, don't get me wrong. In the case of that
Colonial game I just started, the one that caused such
an argument between us, I told the players that I
would not be using any of the special rules, *because
RP couldn't handle them.* This is a preference of the
GM.
I'll also admit that I am in the process of revising
my House Rules to require specific and strict versions
of unit and province designations in orders from
players, but that doesn't mean the players have to use
a certain program. I won't require that, but I will
stick to the premise that you mentioned earlier: That
any laziness on the part of the players should be
punished. I am trying to implement this (rather
strict) measure in a minor degree, so I guess I'll
have to wait until my next gamestart to see how it
works.
The White Wolf
===========================================
1.9. Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
Posted by: "eric grinnell" [email protected]
eric.grinnell
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:33 pm ((PDT))
I have read blessed little of this thread, and I have
read so little of
it for a very simple reason: it's nothing new.
Every dip community I
have ever been a member of has had to go through this
every now and
again -- with any luck, less than once every year or
two.
The impetus is always the same:
Someone who doesn't understand that there are RULES
-- or someone who
understands that there are rules, but doesn't CARE --
whines after
feeling jilted by a seasonal post wherein a GM orders
a misorder in a
way
that is consistent with the rules. Generally
speaking, the player
usually understand that the misorder is, in fact,
consistent with the
rules... but nonetheless thinks one of the following
things:
1) It's a stupid rule, and should be disregarded.
2) That their position in the game is so pivotal,
that protecting it
from the folly of pointless misorder is more
imoprtant than following
the rules.
3) That they don't care about any highminded
discussion of the
topic, and simply want their way. And further, they
think that if
they
whine long enough, loudly enough, to the right
people, and disrupt the
game
horribly enough, they will get their way. --- This
goal pursued with
total disregard to what damage it does to the game,
the hobby, the GMs
reputation... or the other players' opinions of the
game, the hobby,
or
the GMs reputation. (Or their own.)
I can criticize all of these rationales personally,
because I have
pursued all of them at some point or other in my 15
year history in
this
hobby. I have been at times successful, and other
times failed... but
my successes do not justify my abuses, and this is my
redemption. I
have also dealt with all these same issues as a GM,
and this is my
opportunity in a neutral environment where I am not
embroiled in a
conflict
to tell people to grow the hell up.
A more detailed discussion to follow, but I would
like to address the
three ratinoales listed above in the same order I
listed them:
1) Whether the rule is stupid or not, it's not as
stupid as an
idiotic misorder... especially when you have usually
a week in PBEM to
write
your orders and review them. The ONLY excuse for a
misorder in PBEM
is procrastination, lack of attention to detail, or
stupidity... none
of
which gathers any sympathy from me. If stupid was
painful, the world
would quickly become a much better place.
2) You're not that important, get over yourself.
In fact, with few
exceptions, no one cares about the misorder but you,
unless you took
some ally down with you. And in any such event, you
yourself should
be
punished for being a second rate player -- hopefully
with the eventual
outcome that you become more thorough at writing your
orders. And
your
ally should walk away from the incident with new
insights about the
value of choosing sound tacticians as their allies.
3) You should just be shot. Anyone who is ever
caught doing this
should have a big red "A" (For "Asshole") branded
into their forehead.
In all honesty, I think that the discussion of
whether or not a
screwed up unit identifier is a misorder or not is
ridiculous. It
ALWAYS
is. In any face to face tournament or con I have
ever been to, it is.
If you try to plug the order with the wrong unit
identifier into
RealPolitik, Realpolitik calls it an invalid order,
and the unit
remains
unordered. This would be because RealPolitik was
written so as to
FOLLOW
THE RULES. Pretty clear. Pretty unambiguous.
Scratch that. There's
no
"pretty" to any of it. It is undeniably and
incontrovertibly clear
and unambiguous that an order which uses the
incorrect unit identifier
is
a misorder and the unit should hold.
There is, of course, all the argument over how the
GM shouldn't be a
mindreader... shouldn't have to guess if it's an
intentional "oops"
misorder written to fool an "ally," or if it was
truly a misorder. I
agree entirely that this goes beyond the scope of a
GM's job, and also
potentially compromises their neutrality.
Similarly, a GM shouldn't be expected to follow up
after people and
wipe their ass, and tell them to fix their misorders
prior to posting.
Some do that, and if you appreciate them for it,
send them a
christmas
card. Personally, I think it's a bad thing to do.
Idiots should be
frustrated and discouraged from continuing in the
hobby -- not
wetnursed
along. And -- my unique and toxic style of
editorialism aside -- it's
also a horrible thing for the GM to do, since it once
again
compromises
their objectivity and neutrality. As a player, how
would you feel if
you knew a GM had written someone ELSE on the board
and corrected
their
misorder, but then when YOU had a misorder, they
missed it, and you
had a misordered unit holding? Would you find it
fair? I know I
would
find it quite unfair indeed.
The only topic which warrants any REAL discussion,
in my opinion is
whether or not units without any unit identifier at
all should be a
valid order or not. I think the majority opinion is
that such orders
are
valid. I personally disagree, on the grouds that
laziness and lack of
attention, in a game such as this, is a fatal flaw
that should not be
encouraged or accommodated. But I gave up the fight
long ago. I'll
take
that particular point either way .... which is what
makes it a PERFECT
thing to include in houserules.
Oh, hey.... houserules. Let's talk about
houserules. No... let's
not talk about houserules, just yet. Let's talk
about GM's first.
GMs,
gentlemen, are VOLUNTEERS. As such, let's give them
a little
deferrence and respect. Major deviations from the
rules should not be
allowed,
unless for a specific purpose that is openly
discussed and clearly
understood by all prior to the game beginning.
However, most tweaks
to the
rules that are written into house orders are minor
ones, and usually
are included for the convenience of the GM or to fit
the game HE is
running within his conceptual model of how the game
is to be played.
Consider it like a contract. Major deviations or
abuses should not
be
tolerated by the community as a whole and shuold
therefore be
overturned,
but minor ones are between the offeror (GM), and the
offerees
(players).
Contracts are entered into freely, and if you don't
like somerthing
about it, you should modify prior to entering into
the contract
(joining the game). If you try and the GM refuses to
change the house
rules..... and if you care that much, I urge you to
go find another
game. It's very hard (and pointless) to try to fire
a volunteer.
Trying
to change the houserules AFTER the game starts.... is
quite simply
put, an attempted breach of contract. (Which brings
us back to the
red
branded "A" on the foreead.)
All any of this madness does for me is make me think
that I will
require people to use RealPolitk for all the games I
GM, and further
require that players send me orders copied and pasted
from
RealPolitik. The
darn software can run on wnidows 3.0 --heck, for all
I know, it could
probably run on DOS 5.0-- so there's no reason that
anything less
than
EVERYONE in the hobby should have it. Those who want
to join the game
without using RealPolitik, would do so at their own
peril, because any
questionable misorder would simply be plugged into
RealPolitik, and I
would do with it whatever RealPolitk says. And, just
for the record,
RealPolitik loves to declare invalid orders. If you
play with it,
you'll find out what I did: it's not at all because
the software has
quirks; it's because the software follows the RULES.
Objective, neutral, and follows the rules
explicitly. Wow, what an
original concept, huh? I urge you all to consider it
your first
course
of action for running or playing in a game. Call me
crazy, but it
seems to me that that's the best way to run a game.
Anyone who wants to disagree..... before you come to
me to discuss
it, figure out which of my three "rationales"
discussed above you fall
into. We'll start t he conversation from there.
Misordering ALL of you and placing you in Civil
Disorder, with all
the respect I can muster:
-Eric S. Grinnell
"In America we can say what we think, and even if we can't think, we can say it anyhow." - Charles Kettering
____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/
--IhMhdXXIDzZThFlNqgdFkZ5JXtAly4RkXQOM1fY
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<p>Eric,<br>
Whatever personal problems I have had with you in<br>
the past, I'd like to publicly apologize for them.<br>
This post is, in more straightforward language than I<br>
would ever use, almost exactly how I feel about this<br>
topic. You may be abrasive, but you're right. I do,<br>
however, feel the need to play Devil's Advocate on one<br>
point: the potential requirement that all players use<br>
RealPolitik.<br>
I agree that the use of RP would make everybody's<br>
lives a lot easier, and I *encourage* all my players<br>
to use it. I do not, however, *require* it of them.<br>
That would be tantamount to using a Judge, would it<br>
not? Why even involve the human GM at all, if you're<br>
going to leave 100% of the adjudication up to a<br>
program?<br>
Now, don't get me wrong. In the case of that<br>
Colonial game I just started, the one that caused such<br>
an argument between us, I told the players that I<br>
would not be using any of the special rules, *because<br>
RP couldn't handle them.* This is a preference of the<br>
GM.<br>
I'll also admit that I am in the process of revising<br>
my House Rules to require specific and strict versions<br>
of unit and province designations in orders from<br>
players, but that doesn't mean the players have to use<br>
a certain program. I won't require that, but I will<br>
stick to the premise that you mentioned earlier: That<br>
any laziness on the part of the players should be<br>
punished. I am trying to implement this (rather<br>
strict) measure in a minor degree, so I guess I'll<br>
have to wait until my next gamestart to see how it<br>
works.<br>
<br>
The White Wolf<br>
<br>
============<wbr>=========<wbr>=========<wbr>=========<wbr>====<br>
<br>
1.9. Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br>
Posted by: "eric grinnell" <a href="mailto:eric.grinnell%40yahoo.com">eric.grinnell@<wbr>yahoo.com</a><br>
eric.grinnell<br>
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:33 pm ((PDT))<br>
<br>
I have read blessed little of this thread, and I have<br>
read so little of<br>
it for a very simple reason: it's nothing new. <br>
Every dip community I<br>
have ever been a member of has had to go through this<br>
every now and<br>
again -- with any luck, less than once every year or<br>
two.<br>
<br>
The impetus is always the same:<br>
<br>
Someone who doesn't understand that there are RULES<br>
-- or someone who<br>
understands that there are rules, but doesn't CARE --<br>
whines after<br>
feeling jilted by a seasonal post wherein a GM orders<br>
a misorder in a<br>
way<br>
that is consistent with the rules. Generally<br>
speaking, the player<br>
usually understand that the misorder is, in fact,<br>
consistent with the<br>
rules... but nonetheless thinks one of the following<br>
things:<br>
<br>
1) It's a stupid rule, and should be disregarded.<br>
2) That their position in the game is so pivotal,<br>
that protecting it<br>
from the folly of pointless misorder is more<br>
imoprtant than following<br>
the rules.<br>
3) That they don't care about any highminded<br>
discussion of the<br>
topic, and simply want their way. And further, they<br>
think that if<br>
they<br>
whine long enough, loudly enough, to the right<br>
people, and disrupt the<br>
game<br>
horribly enough, they will get their way. --- This<br>
goal pursued with<br>
total disregard to what damage it does to the game,<br>
the hobby, the GMs<br>
reputation..<wbr>. or the other players' opinions of the<br>
game, the hobby,<br>
or<br>
the GMs reputation. (Or their own.)<br>
<br>
I can criticize all of these rationales personally,<br>
because I have<br>
pursued all of them at some point or other in my 15<br>
year history in<br>
this<br>
hobby. I have been at times successful, and other<br>
times failed... but<br>
my successes do not justify my abuses, and this is my<br>
redemption. I<br>
have also dealt with all these same issues as a GM,<br>
and this is my<br>
opportunity in a neutral environment where I am not<br>
embroiled in a<br>
conflict<br>
to tell people to grow the hell up.<br>
<br>
A more detailed discussion to follow, but I would<br>
like to address the<br>
three ratinoales listed above in the same order I<br>
listed them:<br>
<br>
1) Whether the rule is stupid or not, it's not as<br>
stupid as an<br>
idiotic misorder... especially when you have usually<br>
a week in PBEM to<br>
write<br>
your orders and review them. The ONLY excuse for a<br>
misorder in PBEM<br>
is procrastination, lack of attention to detail, or<br>
stupidity... none<br>
of<br>
which gathers any sympathy from me. If stupid was<br>
painful, the world<br>
would quickly become a much better place.<br>
2) You're not that important, get over yourself. <br>
In fact, with few<br>
exceptions, no one cares about the misorder but you,<br>
unless you took<br>
some ally down with you. And in any such event, you<br>
yourself should<br>
be<br>
punished for being a second rate player -- hopefully<br>
with the eventual<br>
outcome that you become more thorough at writing your<br>
orders. And<br>
your<br>
ally should walk away from the incident with new<br>
insights about the<br>
value of choosing sound tacticians as their allies.<br>
3) You should just be shot. Anyone who is ever<br>
caught doing this<br>
should have a big red "A" (For "Asshole") branded<br>
into their forehead.<br>
<br>
In all honesty, I think that the discussion of<br>
whether or not a<br>
screwed up unit identifier is a misorder or not is<br>
ridiculous. It<br>
ALWAYS<br>
is. In any face to face tournament or con I have<br>
ever been to, it is.<br>
If you try to plug the order with the wrong unit<br>
identifier into<br>
RealPolitik, Realpolitik calls it an invalid order,<br>
and the unit<br>
remains<br>
unordered. This would be because RealPolitik was<br>
written so as to<br>
FOLLOW<br>
THE RULES. Pretty clear. Pretty unambiguous. <br>
Scratch that. There's<br>
no<br>
"pretty" to any of it. It is undeniably and<br>
incontrovertibly clear<br>
and unambiguous that an order which uses the<br>
incorrect unit identifier<br>
is<br>
a misorder and the unit should hold.<br>
<br>
There is, of course, all the argument over how the<br>
GM shouldn't be a<br>
mindreader..<wbr>. shouldn't have to guess if it's an<br>
intentional "oops"<br>
misorder written to fool an "ally," or if it was<br>
truly a misorder. I<br>
agree entirely that this goes beyond the scope of a<br>
GM's job, and also<br>
potentially compromises their neutrality. <br>
<br>
Similarly, a GM shouldn't be expected to follow up<br>
after people and<br>
wipe their ass, and tell them to fix their misorders<br>
prior to posting.<br>
Some do that, and if you appreciate them for it,<br>
send them a<br>
christmas<br>
card. Personally, I think it's a bad thing to do. <br>
Idiots should be<br>
frustrated and discouraged from continuing in the<br>
hobby -- not<br>
wetnursed<br>
along. And -- my unique and toxic style of<br>
editorialism aside -- it's<br>
also a horrible thing for the GM to do, since it once<br>
again<br>
compromises<br>
their objectivity and neutrality. As a player, how<br>
would you feel if<br>
you knew a GM had written someone ELSE on the board<br>
and corrected<br>
their<br>
misorder, but then when YOU had a misorder, they<br>
missed it, and you<br>
had a misordered unit holding? Would you find it<br>
fair? I know I<br>
would<br>
find it quite unfair indeed.<br>
<br>
The only topic which warrants any REAL discussion,<br>
in my opinion is<br>
whether or not units without any unit identifier at<br>
all should be a<br>
valid order or not. I think the majority opinion is<br>
that such orders<br>
are<br>
valid. I personally disagree, on the grouds that<br>
laziness and lack of<br>
attention, in a game such as this, is a fatal flaw<br>
that should not be<br>
encouraged or accommodated. But I gave up the fight<br>
long ago. I'll<br>
take<br>
that particular point either way .... which is what<br>
makes it a PERFECT<br>
thing to include in houserules.<br>
<br>
Oh, hey.... houserules. Let's talk about<br>
houserules. No... let's<br>
not talk about houserules, just yet. Let's talk<br>
about GM's first.<br>
GMs,<br>
gentlemen, are VOLUNTEERS. As such, let's give them<br>
a little<br>
deferrence and respect. Major deviations from the<br>
rules should not be<br>
allowed,<br>
unless for a specific purpose that is openly<br>
discussed and clearly<br>
understood by all prior to the game beginning. <br>
However, most tweaks<br>
to the<br>
rules that are written into house orders are minor<br>
ones, and usually<br>
are included for the convenience of the GM or to fit<br>
the game HE is<br>
running within his conceptual model of how the game<br>
is to be played.<br>
Consider it like a contract. Major deviations or<br>
abuses should not<br>
be<br>
tolerated by the community as a whole and shuold<br>
therefore be<br>
overturned,<br>
but minor ones are between the offeror (GM), and the<br>
offerees<br>
(players).<br>
Contracts are entered into freely, and if you don't<br>
like somerthing<br>
about it, you should modify prior to entering into<br>
the contract<br>
(joining the game). If you try and the GM refuses to<br>
change the house<br>
rules..... and if you care that much, I urge you to<br>
go find another<br>
game. It's very hard (and pointless) to try to fire<br>
a volunteer.<br>
Trying<br>
to change the houserules AFTER the game starts.... is<br>
quite simply<br>
put, an attempted breach of contract. (Which brings<br>
us back to the<br>
red<br>
branded "A" on the foreead.)<br>
<br>
All any of this madness does for me is make me think<br>
that I will<br>
require people to use RealPolitk for all the games I<br>
GM, and further<br>
require that players send me orders copied and pasted<br>
from<br>
RealPolitik. The<br>
darn software can run on wnidows 3.0 --heck, for all<br>
I know, it could<br>
probably run on DOS 5.0-- so there's no reason that<br>
anything less<br>
than<br>
EVERYONE in the hobby should have it. Those who want<br>
to join the game<br>
without using RealPolitik, would do so at their own<br>
peril, because any<br>
questionable misorder would simply be plugged into<br>
RealPolitik, and I<br>
would do with it whatever RealPolitk says. And, just<br>
for the record,<br>
RealPolitik loves to declare invalid orders. If you<br>
play with it,<br>
you'll find out what I did: it's not at all because<br>
the software has<br>
quirks; it's because the software follows the RULES.<br>
<br>
Objective, neutral, and follows the rules<br>
explicitly. Wow, what an<br>
original concept, huh? I urge you all to consider it<br>
your first<br>
course<br>
of action for running or playing in a game. Call me<br>
crazy, but it<br>
seems to me that that's the best way to run a game.<br>
<br>
Anyone who wants to disagree....<wbr>. before you come to<br>
me to discuss<br>
it, figure out which of my three "rationales"<br>
discussed above you fall<br>
into. We'll start t he conversation from there.<br>
<br>
<br>
Misordering ALL of you and placing you in Civil<br>
Disorder, with all<br>
the respect I can muster:<br>
-Eric S. Grinnell<br>
<br>
"In America we can say what we think, and even if we can't think, we can say it anyhow." - Charles Kettering<br>
<br>
____________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_<br>
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.<br>
<a href="http://sims.yahoo.com/">http://sims.<wbr>yahoo.com/</a> <br>
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