Afternoon tea of champions Dip 1176 EOGs finally.
Mark <[email protected]> Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:47:57 +0100 (BST)
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.results.eleven-hundred |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
Result: Game ended in a 4 way DIAS (Austria, England, France and Turkey) pre Spring 1917. Players: Austria - Rob Wesley - [email protected] Germany - Steve Ray - [email protected] (eliminated 1905) France - Freeman M Buttland - [email protected] Turkey - Rick Mallon - [email protected] Russia - Gregory Alexopoulos - [email protected] (eliminated 1916) England - Suzanne Castagne - [email protected] Italy - Libby McAfee - [email protected] (eliminated 1911) Observers: David M Stewart - [email protected] Blue - [email protected] Ian Cowburn - [email protected] Nigel Pepper - [email protected] Orders as received: Austria: Early Game: Long time ago and the memories have faded. Started out with an alliance with Italy, and (maybe) an alliance with Germany. The German alliance was never proved / disproved as Steve (Germany) got ransacked relatively quickly by Russia and England. Italy and I did well early on against Turkey, and then France made his move against Italy. I don't remember exactly why I stabbed Italy, my vague recollection is that Russia was putting pressure on me from the North, and France was starting to make inroads in the West, and it was time to try to turn Russia toward something other than me. I made peace with Russia while taking a needed build from Italy. This obviousyly did not make Libby happy ;-) Mid Game: Cleaning up what was left of Italy, and stabilizing lines against France. Somewhere along about this time, Russia and I made up with Turkey, and put together a coherent strategy to defend against both England and France. We were able to hold the line against both (for the most part) and the break came when France attacked England. Rick and I were able to make a DMZ with France allowing him to free up units to go after England, and allowing us to go after Russia. Our turning on Russia had everything to do with Gregory building a fleet in Sev. I'm sure Gregory will defend this as being the only thing he could do because of pressure / threats from England, but I know this made me re-evaluate the status of the A/R/T, and made me look for ways to work with Turkey to finish Russia off. End Game: Maneuvering to grow into the former Russia and keep the DMZ with France. This was working well, with Rick and I both making gains into Russia. Rick and I were assessing when it would be necessary to return to the offensive against France when it was suggested that a four way draw was acceptable to at least three of us. I proposed the four way draw to Mark (somebody else may have as well) and that's where it ended. Thoughts: This game had a lot of back and forth. At one point I thought it was either France's or England's to win. In fact I think if they could have kept their alliance together for a couple of more years it would have. Fortunately they turned on one another while there was still enough left in A/R/T to move back up. I talked with England the whole game and really tried to find some way for our fortunes to coincide but it never seemed to work out. It always seemed to be better to attack England than work with her (maybe next time, Suzanne). France was always very quiet, and often sent a message at the last minute with plans. This sometimes worked, and other times resulted in missed opportunities. Libby and I worked well together until I stabbed her, and then she became the tenacious adversary that she plays so well. I don't know if it would have turned out differently if I hadn't stabbed, perhaps. Gregory and I, and then Rick and I played defense well together. I don't know if Rick was serious when he told me that he was not going to stab me under any circumstances in this game, but I'm glad we didn't have to test it. And last but not least, thanks to Mark for keeping us all in line and the game moving forward. Another fine experience. Rob -- Austria England: A long game, with some nice moments, and lots of frustrations. First, thanks to Mark for his impeccable GMing and his friendly, easy-going attitude. Is that the way you play, too? Initial discussions I started out a bit late on the diplomacy. Gregory (Russia) and I decided to see if we could work together peacefully, for once, since we were neither too close for comfort nor too far. But he surprised both Steve (Germany) and I by suggesting an E/G/R triplet. I don't usually much care for triplets, unless they follow logically from the initial discussions; and I really did not see the point of this one. A friendly understanding in Scandinavia seemed enough. The initial discussions with Steve and Freeman (France) left me thinking that Freeman would make a better partner -- except that Freeman was apparently decided on a Sea Lion, and Steve was decided to let that happen, without committing himself too much personally. I remember a long discussion with Freeman over the channel (yes, he did really talk at that time), which ended with both of us avoiding it. I also decided on a friendly information exchange with Rob (Austria) and Libby (Italy). Of course, I couldn't mention the triplet, but since I didn't believe in it, that was OK. No reply from Turkey; it was more than halfway through the game that we finally started talking occasionally. The half-hearted Sea Lion Agreement on the channel or not, Freeman was intent on going after England. ;( Then Steve decided to bounce Gregory in Sweden. That killed the triplet, of course, but I don't think that anyone but Gregory ever believed in it. It also managed to upset all three of his neighbors, which was what saved England's skin later. Gregory, of course, was the most hurt by it, especially since Rick (Turkey) also bounced him in Rumania, apparently hoping that Italy and Austria would continue to squabble. I was upset, because I saw that in case of an F-G alliance, it weakened my only ally. And Freeman? I am not quite sure why he was upset. Maybe he thought that Russia would join the pig-pile on England. Or maybe he foresaw, rightfully, that Steve would let France and England fight it out, while he (Germany) tried to take the easy pickings from a weakened Russia. Steve still wavered, or pretended to waver. I expected the stab, sooner or later. But I hardly expected it in spring 02, just after he had agreed that we bounce in Sweden. Why stab when he was giving me a center? I suppose he had expected Gregory to bounce with me, but I was fairly sure that Gregory was going into the Baltic. (I didn't expect an army in Silesia as a plus, that was both welcome and courageous.) And, while I knew I could not hold Belgium, I didn't expect him to give it to Freeman. Of course, it didn't occur to me that he would turn around and take it back the next season. Meanwhile, Gregory and I managed to give Denmark to Russia, and we were in a fine situation for a general stalemate. Freeman stuck with the German alliance anyhow, but it was no longer very wholehearted, and it opened up communication between the two of us. A communication that was surprisingly honest, but not very fruitful. I remember Libby in Italy kindly (well, I thought of it as kindly) putting an army in Tyrolia, to give Germany pause. I suggested moving to Piedmont, but, as she explained, she didn't mind France and I butting heads while she ran the show in the east. Actually, all four of us, Russia included, were "butting heads" inconclusively for several years, while Italy and Austria advanced in the east. Under the circumstances, that was the best that I could have hoped for. Finally, with a series of complicated manoeuvers, I quit the North Sea to kick Steve's fleet away out of Hel, I think -- just as Freeman took the Channel. Ouch! Turn-about Well, almost ouch. After all, it certainly wasn't a great situation for England, but there was no assurance that France would get anything for quite a while, and Germany would be advancing. On the other hand, Belgium was a sure center for him, and he had a better chance of making headway in Germany than in England. I pointed this out, and he was willing to consider it. I had to do most of the work of figuring out the tactics, but it was fun. Of course, part of the deal had repercussions elsewhere. Freeman's fleets swung east, very successfully, while Italy was still trying to finish Turkey off. And then there was the other part of the deal : if France was to hit Italy, as well as Germany, I was supposed to attack Russia as soon as this no longer jeopardized the German campaign. Berlin was undecided, that was true; but I was supposed to get Denmark and StP, something that I couldn't really mention to Russia. Of course, that part of the deal might have held or not, more about that later. The German campaign was surprisingly swift and successful. No one, least of all me, ever expected it to end that easily; I thought that Germany would hold out at least another year probably two. At one time, I supported Gregory into Kiel without really mentioning it beforehand. Sorry. It was a last-minute decision, and I really thought that Steve might try to sneak the army we were trying to destroy off to the east. It wasn't until afterwards that I realized that it was a potentially interesting position. Germany's unexpectedly sudden demise left us all a bit in the air. I had to decide which way I was going. But I had quit the North Sea for the second time, and I was in no position to attack France. For Russia, on the other hand, the situation was perfect. And Russia was trying to get me to DMZ the Baltic and to exchange centers, while he would pick up the Turkish centers but refused to commit himself much regarding Austria. The decision was easy. So far, so good. Afterward, it was all downhill. In my head, I planned to get as far as StPete rapidly, while Freeman moved more to the East, and then stab France. I told Greory that I wasn't interested in going any further, although he certainly didn't believe me. But it didn't work out quite that way. For one thing, once Germany fell, Freeman started a long period of semi-mutism. I tried to arrange a DMZ of Belgium and Holland and I got -- not a refusal, but silence. :( I convoyed to Livonia -- not to stay, but only to psyche Gregory into moving Norway back, while I moved back to Berlin. Normally, that should have been accompanied by a convoy to Denmark, while the fleet in Denmark headed to Ska. But Freeman psyched me out so badly that I covered Holland instead. ;( Idiot that I was. The following year, I did follow up that way -- except that I managed to get it mixed up and moved to Hel instead of Ska. And stayed mixed up all year. This was the Newbie's Tea Party, wasn't it? So taking back Norway and being in a position to take StP, which should have taken a couple of years, managed to take twice that. Meanwhile, Freeman had accepted the DMZ of the Atlantic coast, but wanted to move to Ruhr to recuperate Munich from Austria. Freeman was quite honest about using it to recuperate Munich, but it was obviously also for insurance. Also meanwhile, I had given Gregory enough time to move his forces completely northwards, which made things more difficult for me -- until Turkey stabbed him. At least that simplified the situation up north. Endless endgame By the time that I had gotten as far as StP, France had made moved most of his forces eastward -- but had also taken nearly all of Italy, and was starting off on Austrian territory. It was time to stab, if I was ever to do so. Or perhaps too late. At any rate, the stab itself was badly timed, it came just as France made further gains in the east. Afterwards there were years of ups and downs, but essentially a stalemate. Not diplomacy, more like shuffling armies about. And then diplomacy started again. Unfortunately, I wasn't part of it this time. It was apparently Freeman who, out of desperation, broke out of his silence and made a deal with Austria and Turkey, just as Gregory had build a fleet that they considered a provocation. The deal worked. When I saw that Gregory couldn't hold out, I joined the pig-pile on Russia. But afterwards, the deal continued to my detriment. I probably could have slowed down the movement, but I doubt that it would have changed the outcome. It doesn't matter. We weren't getting anywhere, it was slow and dogged, and I'm actually glad that the mess finally ended. Sorry that I had to stab two perfectly good allies and eliminate one to get to this, but glad it was finished. In sum : Gregory did what he could with what must have been a frustrating situation, from fall 01 on to the end. And, bless him, he talked. When we had really nothing to say about the game, we could at least remake the world, and otherwise occupy ourselves. Thanks for making the game livable, in spite of my bad decisions. Steve was a fine, communicative player until we all piled on him. But I always had the feeling that, whatever deal we made, I'd always have to be looking over my shoulder every minute from that time onward. A French player I respect highly once said that he practically never bounced Russia in Sweden in 01, because it gives England too much of an advantage. Maybe I see what he meant. Freeman is a fine, honest, reliable player, a great ally -- when he's talking. And when he's not... ;) First time I've ever met a lawyer who hates to talk. Libby was a shooting star. Were you really surprised when Austria turned against you? but I thank you for waking me up properly, with your "butting heads" remark -- and, of course, for Tyrolia. Rob was a fine player, a diplomat up to the end. But is stop-the-leader the only strategy? I'm sure it's not -- when you're the leader. I didn't really have much dealings with Rick. I suppose that's logical; even at the end, England and Turkey are hardly neighbors. Thanks to all of you for an interesting game, and sorry for the years that were so immobile. Suzanne France: What a long game. And it really started to drag for the last several game years. The game started off somewhat shakily for me. My negotiations with Suzanne (England) did not go that well. I had a very tough time coming to any sort of agreement with her. But Suzanne really seemed to mistrust Steve, which I suppose benefited me. She did not like or agree with what I was saying, but it really appeared that she was not going to be able to work with Steve. I had played with Steve before in three prior games. I felt like I could work with him. And Suzanne and I were not hitting it off, so my intention was to ally with Steve. I am really having trouble remembering what happened in Fall 1901, it's been so long, but I do remember that I thought the critical move was Steve bouncing Greg in Sweden. This caused England and Russia to work together against Steve and I basically could not make any headway against England. Also, if I recall correctly, because I was very cautious in dealing with Steve, England got Belgium and two builds. So, I had a tough time making any progress against England with Germany not able to offer any help. So, though I was allied with Steve, once I saw that the situation was going to stalemate at best for me, I changed direction and worked with Suzanne. I really am not a great fan of the EF alliance--I just find that France has a difficult time in the mid to end-game with England having a natural positional advantage, but I felt like I did not have a choice. What if Steve had not bounced in Greg in Sweden? I assume that Greg would have taken Norway from Suzanne and I would have been able to overwhelm Suzanne's forces, but Germany would not have a great avenue for growth. So, that was a difficult choice for Steve. I am not sure what the right move, if any, there was to make there. After that, things went pretty smoothly for a while. Germany fell pretty quickly with three countries attacking it at the same time. I felt that like Suzanne was being awfully conservative in making headway against Russia. I felt like we could have run the board if we had acted more aggressively. But maybe her moves were conservative because she was planning to attack me, which she in fact did. Of course, as was inevitable, Suzanne decided to attack me. But I was able to put a decent defense and stop her from doing much. And, once I had a deal with Rob (Austria) and Rick (Turkey) I had enough forces to completely stop her and actually push her back, at least in Germany. Anyway, that was pretty much how the game went. I think in retrospect I wish Steve and I had coordinated things a bit better in 1901. I was a bit too cautious, allowing Suzanne to get two builds, which makes England quite formidable. And we should have perhaps discussed the bounce in Sweden, because that was something I was not in favor of. This created a situation where I had no chance of really making any gains against England and I was worried about getting stalemated and having Italy attack me. Rob and Rick were pretty reasonable people to deal with. But I did have difficulties with both early on in the game. I was trying to make a deal with Rob when I had conquered most of Italy. But I wanted Venice so that we could have natural borders and he could turn to the east while I dealt with Suzanne. And, naturally, he did not want to give up Venice. When Austria, Turkey and Russia were trying to stop EF, I kept pressing Rick to stabl AR. Which he did. Then he looked at all those Turkish fleets coming at me and I changed my mind about working with Turkey. I am not sure what his plans were at that point, but I kind of reneged on our deal. Sorry about that. The only time I worked with Greg (Russia) was when I helped him against Turkey. But my memories of that part of the game are dim. Earlier in the game, I wanted to have England sort of stuck between a strong Russia and France but that was not to be. Perhaps I should have hit England while Russia still had viable forces in the north. And he put up a very good defense against Suzanne. My problem was I did not think I could fight a two front war. And my attempts to negotiate a deal with Austria to do so failed. Once Russia was crushed in the north any chances of a French solo were crushed as well. Oh, almost forgot Libby. Although I broke our deal she was more upset with Rob than with me, which I was happy to take advantage of. She did have a lot of sound suggestions, which was one reason why I kept around her in Venice for so long! And thanks to Mark for doing an exemplary job as GM. I tested his patience on a number of occasions, too... When is someone going to win one of these things? I don't know, but it was a fun game, though it perhaps dragged a bit as we got near 1920. At that point, given the zero chance of a solo in this game, I decided to throw in the towel and everyone else seemed quite willing to do so at that point, too. All the best to everyone. Freeman Germany: This'll be short, because my participation was short. My memory may be hazy as well. Started out with lots of nice words from Freeman, Suzanne and Gregory. I agreed to an EGR alliance, while playing nice with Freeman as a safety valve. I think Libby and I also agreed to a DMZ in Tyrolia. Things went okay in 1901, but then I faced a choice: continue with the EGR and stab Freeman, or throw in with Freeman and scuttle the EGR. I was nervous about the EGR, because it appeared that Suzanne and Gregory would be behind me when we turned south, and I had nightmares of becoming a German sandwich on their lunch table. So I decided to go with Freeman. That worked okay, except we were sort of in a stalemate position. And then Libby put an army in Tyrolia and pretty much refused to remove it, forcing me to waste a unit defending Munich. So it didn't look great, but I had a reasonably stable defensive line against ER -- until Freeman stabbed me. At that point it was all over. I was doomed by a failure to establish any meaningful diplomatic relationships, compounded by excessive paranoia and a loose-cannon Italy (from my perspective; I'm sure Libby had sound reasons for what she did). It's rare that I'm the first power eliminated. It's even rarer, when that happens, for me to have nobody to blame but myself. :) Thanks for the game, folks, and congrats to the survivors. Steve Italy: Given how long ago it was that I was eliminated I don't have a great recollection about what transpired. I do recall Rob and I working together early on. It seemed to me that he got cold feet and greedy and turned on me. Had he remained true I suspect he and I could have done very well together. Perhaps another time. Thank you all for playing and I look forward to Playing with any/all of you again. Libby Russia: It was a long, hard game, of 16 years and they voted to end it as soon as they managed to eliminate me! Shame on you! I wont go through the specifics of each turn, that would make the EOG huge. I will however comment on some striking things that happened during the game (striking in terms of being important in Moscow). One thing is certain about these champions games: theyre a good opportunity to become a dip-student again! In this game I had the unfortunate privilege to spend the entire time perfecting my defensive skills. From spring 1901 onwards it was as if I my white units had been transformed to clay pigeons or something. First it was Germany, then Italy was pulling the strings against me, then England, then Turkey, then Austria /and/ Turkey, then England with Austria and Turkey. Im sure Trinidad-Tobago would have attacked me if it were possible! So, I learned that I look a lot like an invitation for target practice. I also learned (once more) that people view the board based on their perspectives. I practically forced Suzanne to stab me, because once Germany was out, I tried to reach a new position where it would hard for her to stab me in the future, so she had to do it immediately. While this seems obvious afterwards, its amazing how easy it is to miss the way the picture looks from the other side. I also learned that we cat23 x-champions are draw people. Im kinda disappointed this is the 4th draw in the 4th Champions game. Originally I was hoping to see the series reach 7 games (so, that would mean Supper, Dinner and Late night snack are still to be experienced names are open to suggestions though!). In the first 4 weve had some darn amazing players crossing swords, performing impressive moves and still failing to win any of them. This Afternoon Tea in particular witnessed the early dismissal of Steve Ray (sorry about that Steve, but dont bounce any Russian in Sweden because you assume you can handle the reaction!) and I admit that lead to a game more static than usual. I think both Freeman and Suzanne had a good shot at the solo (especially Suzanne) but got too conservative to make it happen. Of course, Im as dead as a dodo, so Im probably wrong about all this! The games length also indicates the rather unadventurous approach that dominated it. Its not that we didnt have shifts of alliances, but there were no spectacular ones to be had. Its not like we didnt have lots of fun exchanging letters etc, but there was practically no public press, no puns, no screaming of victims. Its not like there was no backstabbing, claws reaching for throats, or hair-pulling among friendly neighbors. My only complain is that most of it was anticipated. In the long, harsh 16 years of war, every stab or attack was the logical, anticipated thing one would expect to see (with the sad exception of yours truly getting an all-around bruised ego in 1901). And I know we can do much better Ive seen all of you people doing hugely better! Despite my complaint, I enjoyed the game a lot, frustrating as it was. The participants were timely and dedicated, the press was good and humorous (when that was possible!) and the challenges enormous. Suzanne is certainly a force to be reckoned with, and I sincerely think that had she kept me around to annoy Rob and Rick, she would have a good chance to break through Freemans lines and go for the Holy Grail. Freeman is an excellent tactician and a masterful strategist, but he may have missed this game because of the little time he invented in communication during the crucial years when he was leading the board. Rob was fun to play with or against (as always). Surviving /this/ game as Austria was no small accomplishment. Rick practically came back from the dead, and thats huge. I still believe though that his stab on me (the second out of three Turkish in total) was the trigger that lead to events giving both Freeman and Suzanne a shot at the solo later on. Steve was great once more, I have the greatest respect for his abilities. However, I have yet to understand why he thought I would stomach the bounce in Sweden when nothing better was offered as an alternative in a way he threw me in Suzannes camp. Libby started the game out impressively and I think she had a lot to do with the entire initial alliance structure, but she drew too much attention on herself and thats always bad against players like this unholy group of muggers. As for Mark, its not the first time I enjoy his relaxed yet precise and refined GMing style and I will certainly look forward to the next game under his guidance! Im flattered to be among this group, and despite my grievances for not witnessing a solo, Im eager to cross swords with you guys in the future! All the best, Gregory Russia in Afternoon Tea of Champions Turkey: It was the first time I'd ever played Turkey. I've played every other position on the board a number of times - but not Turkey. I didn't do the position justice. I had decided before the game started to attack Russia for - I flipped a coin between Russia and Austria - sorry Gregory you lost. It didn't take me long not to trust Italy (Libby) - by fall 1901 I was basically certain Italy couldn't be trusted. I found Italy to be unpredictable and too big a fan of one-sided negotiations. The Italian fleet in the Aegean sealed the deal for me. It forced me to break off my attack on Russia and work towards getting Italy pushed back. In 1902 things went from bad to worse as the Lepanto unvealed itself. Austria & Italy took out Bulgaria - Italian fleets invaded EasMed along with Aegean and Russia got into the Black Sea. Wasn't looking too good. Still Austria stabbed Russia in Rum which sort of put Russia & me in the same boat. I lost Smy in 1903 to those pesky Italian fleets and in 1904 gave up Con and was looking at an early exit. In 1905 I was down to 1 unit but then Austria stabbed Italy and Russia decided to help me regain Smyrna. 1905 saw Germany get wiped out and an EF powerhouse was underway. But I had increased by army by 100% and was feeling mighty strong. 1906 I remained stalled at 2 units - I got Con but Russia kept the boot on my neck by taking Ank (which is exactly what I would have done in his place). But Russia's northern position was eroding so he disbanded Ank. In 1907 I retook Ank in the fall and after 7 years was right back to where I'd started. Spring 1908 saw the rise of the ART vs EF coalition and we began to work overtime to create an EF split via diplomacy. By 1909 the coalition was in rough shape. My lingering mistrust of Russia led me to stab him for Sev & Con. That seemed to irritate him - go figure. Good news was that EF finally came to blows in 1910. 1911 & 1912 saw a lot of board fluidity. It became clear that ER were working together even though Russia had professed to be friends again with myself & Turkey. This ended up with Russia sneaking a unit into Arm to flare things up again. He retreated in spring 1913 only to eventually build F Sev over the objections of myself and Austria. Enough was enough. In 1914 AT sided with France more actively and repositioned units to attack Russia. By 1916 Russia was a pleasant distant memory & by 1917 I was at 6 SCs and happily agreeing to a DIAS. A good result considering 1905 Annus Horribilus. This was a pretty interesting game when you think of it. Lots of good dipping going on all game. Thanks to all the players and to Mark for all of his hard work. Rick. Gm: Thanks for a generally trouble free game, commitment as usual was excellent. That was certainly a long game, Ill admit I lost interest in about 1910-1911 as it appeared to become a bit of a ballet show after that point. I always feel that a 4 way is one of the most disappointing results in Diplomacy but I understand why it seems to happen on so many occasions. So, onward, if Gregory would like me to run the next game, Id be honoured. Assuming he does, you all have a reservation for: Dip 1225 Pre theatre blue plate supper of champions If you can think up a better mid-atlantic name Id love to hear it. Start date, June 1st 2005 9PM BST (GMT+1) Country preferences to me please, dont forget if you already played a country in the Champions series you cant play it again. Mark Bjarne Stroustrup (inventor of C++) "There's an old story about the person who wished his computer were as easy to use as his telephone. That wish has come true, since I no longer know how to use my telephone" Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cat23-1100/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/