[ippm] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployme nt-05 (Ends 2026-05-28)

Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola=40huawei.com-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]> Thu, 28 May 2026 14:19:36 +0000
Newsgroups gmane.ietf.ippm,gmane.ietf.bmwg
Message-ID <[email protected]>
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Hi Tjeerd,

I agree with you regarding the use of cryptography for the controlled domai=
n. Indeed, if you look at section 2.1 of RFC9343, it is also mentioned that=
 multiple domains can create a whole controlled domain while traversing the=
 external domain by employing IPsec authentication and encryption or other =
VPN technology. I can clarify this point in draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deploy=
ment too.

Regarding the AltMark encapsulations, note that RFC9343 defines the extensi=
on for IPv6, while in RFC9714 it is defined the extension for MPLS. There i=
s no standard extension for IPv4, but, just to satisfy your curiosity, we i=
nitially experimented the method by marking the DSCP field (see RFC8321) or=
 the last reserved bit of the Flag field (see draft-chen-ippm-coloring-base=
d-ipfpm-framework).
Other extensions are in progress, as you can notice in section 8 of draft-i=
etf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment.


Regards,

Giuseppe


From: Pinkert, Tjeerd <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2026 3:10 PM
To: Giuseppe Fioccola <[email protected]>; draft-ietf-ippm-alt-m=
[email protected]; IPPM Chairs <[email protected]>; [email protected];=
 [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment-05 (Ends 202=
6-05-28)

Dear Guiseppe,

OK, so that scenario is possible.
You may notice that I am interested in the network performance from the net=
work user perspective.

It is the question if the user domain could form such a controlled domain, =
and the packets are allowed to travel though a foreign domain.
>From a security perspective, one needs to know one thing: was my packet (th=
e alternate marker) manipulated by the foreign domain?
This can be achieved with cryptographic signatures, so that would need to b=
e designed into the measurement protocols (alternate marker data).
(Removal of alternate marker data is also a manipulation of the packet and =
can be detected by the user.)
I think a controlled user domain would be characterised by a shared secret =
for signing / encryption.

A user on the network edge, owning ten- to hundred-thousand machines formin=
g a distributed system, is a common use-case.
In particular, when the distributed system must be capable of adjusting to =
the network conditions, alternate marking methods could also be used.
Then the use of alternate markers by the user and the network owner should =
not collide.

One (off topic) thing I would be interested in, is what fields are typicall=
y used for alternate marking methods, and if signatures come into question =
for that?

Best regards,


Tjeerd


From: Giuseppe Fioccola <[email protected]<mailto:giuseppe.fiocc=
[email protected]>>
Sent: Donnerstag, 21. Mai 2026 10:32
To: Pinkert, Tjeerd (SMO RI ML COC SM 2) <[email protected]<mailto=
:[email protected]>>; [email protected]=
<mailto:[email protected]>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-ch=
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; [email protected]<mailto:ippm@ietf=
.org>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]<mailto:bmw=
[email protected]>
Subject: RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment-05 (Ends 202=
6-05-28)

Hi Tjeerd,
Thank you for the question.
Yes, it would be possible. But, for security reasons, In-Data-Packet OAM me=
thods, such as Alternate-Marking and IOAM, should be applied to limited/con=
trolled domains. You can find more details about this requirement in RFC 93=
41 and RFC 9197. It was initially discussed in RFC 8799.

Regards,

Giuseppe

From: Pinkert, Tjeerd <[email protected]<mailto:tjeerd.pinkert@sie=
mens.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2026 4:19 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:draft-ietf-ippm-alt=
[email protected]>; IPPM Chairs <[email protected]<mailto:ippm-c=
[email protected]>>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]<mailto=
:[email protected]>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment-05 (Ends 202=
6-05-28)

Dear all,

I'm just wondering, can internet users form a controlled (boundary) domain =
and apply the alternate marking method independently of the controlled netw=
ork domain?
This should be possible, but is not very deeply explored?
(Or maybe I'm just missing the point, and the remarks on encapsulating traf=
fic cover this sufficiently?)

With best regards,
Dr. Tjeerd Pinkert

Siemens Mobility GmbH
Mobility
Rail Infrastructure
System Management 2
SMO RI ML COC SM 2
Ackerstr. 22
38126 Braunschweig, Germany
Phone: +49 (1520) 2884088
Mobile: +49 (1520) 2884088
mailto:[email protected]
www.siemens.com<https://www.siemens.com>
[Logo]
Siemens Mobility GmbH; Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Roland Busch; Man=
agement Board: Beatrice Bock, Michael Peter; Registered office: Munich, Ger=
many; Commercial registry Munich, HRB 237219; WEEE-Reg.-No. DE 92917817

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Hi Tjeerd,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I agree with you re=
garding the use of cryptography for the controlled domain. Indeed, if you l=
ook at section 2.1 of RFC9343, it is also mentioned that multiple domains c=
an create a whole controlled domain
 while traversing the external domain by employing IPsec authentication and=
 encryption or other VPN technology. I can clarify this point in draft-ietf=
-ippm-alt-mark-deployment too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Regarding the AltMa=
rk encapsulations, note that RFC9343 defines the extension for IPv6, while =
in RFC9714 it is defined the extension for MPLS. There is no standard exten=
sion for IPv4, but, just to satisfy
 your curiosity, we initially experimented the method by marking the DSCP f=
ield (see RFC8321) or the last reserved bit of the Flag field (see draft-ch=
en-ippm-coloring-based-ipfpm-framework).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Other extensions ar=
e in progress, as you can notice in section 8 of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-d=
eployment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Giuseppe<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:non=
e">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none"> Pin=
kert, Tjeerd &lt;[email protected]&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 27, 2026 3:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Giuseppe Fioccola &lt;[email protected]&gt;; draft-ie=
[email protected]; IPPM Chairs &lt;[email protected]&=
gt;; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment-05 (E=
nds 2026-05-28)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Dear=
 Guiseppe,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">OK, =
so that scenario is possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">You =
may notice that I am interested in the network performance from the network=
 user perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">It i=
s the question if the user domain could form such a controlled domain, and =
the packets are allowed to travel though a foreign domain.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">From=
 a security perspective, one needs to know one thing: was my packet (the al=
ternate marker) manipulated by the foreign domain?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">This=
 can be achieved with cryptographic signatures, so that would need to be de=
signed into the measurement protocols (alternate marker data).<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">(Rem=
oval of alternate marker data is also a manipulation of the packet and can =
be detected by the user.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I th=
ink a controlled user domain would be characterised by a shared secret for =
signing / encryption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">A us=
er on the network edge, owning ten- to hundred-thousand machines forming a =
distributed system, is a common use-case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">In p=
articular, when the distributed system must be capable of adjusting to the =
network conditions, alternate marking methods could also be used.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Then=
 the use of alternate markers by the user and the network owner should not =
collide.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">One =
(off topic) thing I would be interested in, is what fields are typically us=
ed for alternate marking methods, and if signatures come into question for =
that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Best=
 regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Tjee=
rd<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:non=
e">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none"> Giu=
seppe Fioccola &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">giuseppe.fioccola@huawei=
.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Donnerstag, 21. Mai 2026 10:32<br>
<b>To:</b> Pinkert, Tjeerd (SMO RI ML COC SM 2) &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailt=
o:[email protected]"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures=
:none">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;mso-ligatures:none">&gt;;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-de=
[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:n=
one">; IPPM Chairs &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span><=
/a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">&gt;;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso=
-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;ms=
o-ligatures:none">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso=
-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;ms=
o-ligatures:none">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;mso-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment-05 (E=
nds 2026-05-28)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Hi Tjeerd,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Thank you for the q=
uestion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Yes, it would be po=
ssible. But, for security reasons,</span>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">In-Data-Packet OAM methods, such as Altern=
ate-Marking and IOAM, should be applied to limited/controlled domains. You =
can find more details about this requirement in RFC 9341 and RFC 9197. It w=
as initially discussed in RFC 8799.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Giuseppe<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:non=
e">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none"> Pin=
kert, Tjeerd &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">[email protected]</=
span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 20, 2026 4:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment@iet=
f.org"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">draft-ietf-ippm-=
[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-=
ligatures:none">; IPPM Chairs &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:ippm-chairs@ietf=
.org"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">ippm-chairs@ietf.=
org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">&gt;;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso=
-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;ms=
o-ligatures:none">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso=
-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;ms=
o-ligatures:none">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;mso-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment-05 (E=
nds 2026-05-28)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Dear=
 all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I&#8=
217;m just wondering, can internet users form a controlled (boundary) domai=
n and apply the alternate marking method independently of the controlled ne=
twork domain?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">This=
 should be possible, but is not very deeply explored?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">(Or =
maybe I&#8217;m just missing the point, and the remarks on encapsulating tr=
affic cover this sufficiently?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:none">With best regards,<br>
Dr. Tjeerd Pinkert<br>
<br>
Siemens Mobility GmbH<br>
Mobility<br>
Rail Infrastructure<br>
System Management 2<br>
SMO RI ML COC SM 2<br>
Ackerstr. 22<br>
38126 Braunschweig, Germany<br>
Phone: &#43;49 (1520) 2884088<br>
Mobile: &#43;49 (1520) 2884088<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue;mso-ligatures:n=
one">mailto:[email protected]</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:none=
"><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://www.siemens.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"=
EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue;mso-lig=
atures:none">www.siemens.com</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:none"><br>
<img border=3D"0" width=3D"202" height=3D"80" style=3D"width:2.1in;height:.=
8333in" id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:[email protected]" a=
lt=3D"Logo"><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:none">Siemens Mobility GmbH; C=
hairman of the Supervisory Board: Roland Busch; Management Board: Beatrice =
Bock, Michael Peter; Registered office: Munich,
 Germany; Commercial registry Munich, HRB 237219; WEEE-Reg.-No. DE 92917817=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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