[ippm] Re: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpret ing Packet Loss Observed by Active Performance Measurements
Ike Kunze <ike.kunze=40cujo.com-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]> Thu, 23 Jul 2026 10:33:39 +0000
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--===============6289099479516140795== Content-Language: en-GB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DBAPR02MB64247EC25085B02D1EB41CEC80C02DBAPR02MB6424eurp_" --_000_DBAPR02MB64247EC25085B02D1EB41CEC80C02DBAPR02MB6424eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1, this work looks interesting. Not sure about the inclusion of passive/hy= brid measurements in the current form, though, as that section 7 feels a bi= t out of place the way it is right now. Possible options could be to either= broaden the scope of the doc to also discuss hybrid and passive in detail = (e.g., by having a more general =93considerations for measurement result in= terpretation=94 and then having focused sections on active, hybrid, passive= stating which considerations apply) or by branching out the doc into multi= ple ones (one general doc, then one on active, one on passive, ..). Regarding charter, I=92d agree with Ruediger that based on the current vers= ion of the new charter, this doc is probably NOT in scope but it shouldn=92= t be too hard to add that dimension in there, e.g., in the last paragraph b= efore the work items and the first paragraph of the work items. Personally, I think I=92d support that inclusion. Cheers, Ike Friendly Note: I send emails at times that work best for me. Please don=92t= feel any pressure to reply outside your usual working hours. From: Tim Chown <Tim.Chown=3D40jisc.ac.uk-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]> Date: Thursday, 23 July 2026 at 11:56 To: Libin Liu <[email protected]>; [email protected] <Ruediger.G= [email protected]> Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [ippm] Re: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting Packet L= oss Observed by Active Performance Measurements CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not cli= ck links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the c= ontent is safe. Hi, I think this is useful work, applicable to many tools that would come out o= f the new joint bpm WG. The question is where it fits - there or, presumabl= y, the catchall opsawg. The bpm charter is still bashable. You can propose an edit to clarify the = applicability of your work at https://github.com/ietf-ippm/wg-charter/blob/= main/ippm-bmwg-joint.md. The wg would need to agree that interpretation/tr= oubleshooting informational/guidance documents are in scope. If we=92re in= cluding security / sensitivity perspectives, it could be. Tim On 23/07/2026, 11:39, "Libin Liu" <[email protected]> wrote: Hi Ruediger, Thank you very much for your feedback and for raising this question for dis= cussion. Given the close relationship between measurement results and their interpre= tation, I believe IPPM (or BMP WG later) is a natural venue for this work, = and I hope to continue developing it within the WG. At the same time, I app= reciate the opportunity to hear the views of the WG members about this, and= I am open to further input and review. Thanks. Best, Libin ________________________________ From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2026 4:59 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: AW: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting Packet Loss Obs= erved by Active Performance Measurements Hi Libin, thanks for your draft. The draft discusses the topic quite well, I think. The question I have is addressed to the chairs and community: IPPM is chart= ered to specify metrics and metric measurement metrics. Your draft regards = result interpretation. - interpreting results is the reason, why measurements are collected. - is IPPM (or another IETF WG; if yes, which one) chartered for documentati= on or standardization of doc=92s as your draft? As my point isn=92t related to content and rather an organizational questio= n, I appreciate feedback of others who may be interested in the subject (co= ntent of your draft). Regards, Ruediger Von: Libin Liu <[email protected]> Gesendet: Dienstag, 14. Juli 2026 03:54 An: ippm <[email protected]>; bmwg <[email protected]> Betreff: [ippm] Fw: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting Packet L= oss Observed by Active Performance Measurements Dear All, Following my previous email, I would like to share a more detailed set of s= lides introducing draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations. The presentati= on provides more background on the motivation, the interpretation problem, = and the overall framework discussed in the draft. The slides are available in the GitHub repo: https://github.com/LibinLiu018= 9/draft-ippm-active-loss-considerations/blob/main/slides-ippm-active-loss-c= onsiderations-00.pdf If the topic is of interest, I would appreciate any comments or feedback. I= would also be happy to discuss the work, either in Vienna during IETF 126 = or online. Thank you very much. Best, Libin ________________________________ From: Libin Liu <liulb=3D40zgclab.edu.cn-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]<mailto:liulb=3D40zg= clab.edu.cn-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]>> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2026 9:30 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]= >>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]= >> Subject: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting Packet Loss Observe= d by Active Performance Measurements Dear All, I would like to draw your attention to a new draft that has recently been s= ubmitted: draft-liu-ippm-active-measurement-loss-considerations-00. This document discusses considerations for interpreting packet loss observe= d by active performance measurements. While measurement protocols and metri= cs accurately report observable outcomes such as packet loss, missing respo= nses, delay, and delay variation, these observations alone often do not rev= eal the underlying operational cause. Similar measurement results may arise= from different conditions, including congestion, forwarding failures, rout= ing changes, filtering policies, endpoint behavior, multipath forwarding, o= r validation-related packet discard. The document proposes a common interpretation framework that distinguishes = measured outcomes from inferred causes. It discusses how different operatio= nal conditions may affect the interpretation of packet loss, delay, and del= ay variation in active performance measurements, including one-way and two-= way measurements, OWAMP, TWAMP, STAMP, and measurements over ECMP and link = aggregation. The document also discusses how additional operational context= may assist operators and measurement systems in reasoning about possible e= xplanations for observed measurement results. The draft is available here: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations/= . The GitHub repository for the draft is also available here for issues, co= mments, and pull requests: https://github.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm-activ= e-loss-considerations. Comments, suggestions, and discussions would be greatly appreciated. I woul= d also be interested to hear whether similar interpretation challenges have= been encountered in operational deployments or existing measurement system= s, and whether there are additional scenarios that should be considered in = the document. Thank you very much. Best, Libin > -----Original Messages----- > From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Send time:Wednesday, 01/07/2026 17:09:28 > To: "Libin Liu" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-consider= ations-00.txt > > A new version of Internet-Draft > draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.txt has been successfully > submitted by Libin Liu and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations > Revision: 00 > Title: Considerations for Interpreting Packet Loss Observed by Active = Performance Measurements > Date: 2026-07-01 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 30 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-cons= iderations-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-con= siderations/ > HTML: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-cons= iderations-00.html > HTMLized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-liu-ippm-active-los= s-considerations > > > Abstract: > > Active performance measurement protocols and metrics are commonly > used to measure packet loss, delay, delay variation, reachability, > and path behavior. When an active measurement packet is not > received, a response is missing, or a measurement exchange times out, > the measurement result identifies the observable outcome but often > does not identify the underlying cause. > > Loss observed by active performance measurements can be associated > with congestion, queue discard, link or forwarding failures, routing > changes, endpoint or reflector behavior, administrative filtering, > policing, multipath effects, or validation-related packet discard > such as Source Address Validation (SAV). Different operational > conditions can produce similar measurement observations, but they may > have different meanings and require different troubleshooting > actions. > > This document discusses considerations for interpreting packet loss > observed by active performance measurements. It provides a common > set of considerations for separating measured outcomes from inferred > causes, describes operational conditions that can lead to observed > loss, discusses implications for one-way and two-way measurements, > delay and delay variation interpretation, OWAMP, TWAMP, STAMP, and > measurements over ECMP and link aggregation. It also discusses how > some considerations may apply to hybrid and passive performance > measurements and identifies sources of operational context that can > help operators and measurement systems reason about possible > explanations. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > _______________________________________________ bmwg mailing list -- [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:bmwg-leave@ietf.= org> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended = solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. = If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. = This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the= individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not dissem= inate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately= by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-ma= il from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified= that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on= the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. --_000_DBAPR02MB64247EC25085B02D1EB41CEC80C02DBAPR02MB6424eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1= 252"> </head> <body> <div style=3D"direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-= serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> +1, this work looks interesting. Not sure about the inclusion of passive/hy= brid measurements in the current form, though, as that section 7 feels a bi= t out of place the way it is right now. Possible options could be to either= broaden the scope of the doc to also discuss hybrid and passive in detail (e.g., by having a more general = =93considerations for measurement result interpretation=94 and then having = focused sections on active, hybrid, passive stating which considerations ap= ply) or by branching out the doc into multiple ones (one general doc, then one on active, one on passive, ..). &= nbsp;</div> <div style=3D"direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-= serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-= serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Regarding charter, I=92d agree with Ruediger that based on the current vers= ion of the new charter, this doc is probably NOT in scope but it shouldn=92= t be too hard to add that dimension in there, e.g., in the last paragraph b= efore the work items and the first paragraph of the work items. </div> <div style=3D"direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-= serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Personally, I think I=92d support that inclusion.</div> <div style=3D"direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-= serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-= serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Cheers,</div> <div style=3D"direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-= serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Ike</div> <div style=3D"direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-= serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature" style=3D"color: inherit; background= -color: inherit;"> <div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0px 0in; font-fam= ily: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, = 0, 0);"> <span style=3D"line-height: 20px;"><b>Friendly Note:</b> I send emails= at times that work best for me. Please don=92t feel any pressure to reply = outside your usual working hours.</span></div> </div> <div id=3D"mail-editor-reference-message-container" style=3D"color: inherit= ; background-color: inherit;"> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr;"> </div> <div style=3D"padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border= -style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) currentcolor curr= entcolor;"> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"te= xt-align: left; font-family: Aptos; font-size: 12pt; color: black;"> <b>From: </b>Tim Chown <Tim.Chown=3D40jisc.ac.uk-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]><br> <b>Date: </b>Thursday, 23 July 2026 at 11:56<br> <b>To: </b>Libin Liu <[email protected]>; [email protected]= e <[email protected]><br> <b>Cc: </b>[email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <bmwg@ietf= .org><br> <b>Subject: </b>[ippm] Re: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting P= acket Loss Observed by Active Performance Measurements<br> <br> </div> </div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"te= xt-align: left; line-height: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 235, 156); pa= dding: 2pt; border-width: 1pt; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(156, = 101, 0); width: 100%; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style=3D"color: rgb(156, 101, 0);">CAUTION:</span><span style=3D"colo= r: black;"> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do= not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and kn= ow the content is safe.</span></div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr;"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: = 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Hi,</div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: = 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: = 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> I think this is useful work, applicable to many tools that would come out o= f the new joint bpm WG. The question is where it fits - there or, presumabl= y, the catchall opsawg.</div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: = 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: = 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> The bpm charter is still bashable. You can propose an edit to clarify= the applicability of your work at <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-ippm/wg-charter/blob/main/ippm-bmwg-join= t.md" originalsrc=3D"https://github.com/ietf-ippm/wg-charter/blob/main/ippm= -bmwg-joint.md" data-outlook-id=3D"1ac34ac2-f698-4dfc-bc59-c82e652d1a0f"> https://github.com/ietf-ippm/wg-charter/blob/main/ippm-bmwg-joint.md</a>. &= nbsp;The wg would need to agree that interpretation/troubleshooting informa= tional/guidance documents are in scope. If we=92re including security= / sensitivity perspectives, it could be.</div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: = 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: = 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Tim</div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: = 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div id=3D"mail-editor-reference-message-container" style=3D"color: inherit= ; background-color: inherit;"> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">On 23/07/20= 26, 11:39, "Libin Liu" <[email protected]> wrote:</div> <div class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"di= rection: ltr;"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"line-height: normal; margin: 0px; fo= nt-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helveti= ca, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Hi Ruediger,</div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"direction: ltr; line-height: normal;= margin: 0px; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, = Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"line-height: normal; margin: 0px; fo= nt-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helveti= ca, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Thank you very much for your feedback and for raising this question for dis= cussion.</div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"direction: ltr; line-height: normal;= margin: 0px; min-height: 15px; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Apt= os_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: r= gb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"line-height: normal; margin: 0px; fo= nt-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helveti= ca, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Given the close relationship between measurement results and their interpre= tation, I believe IPPM (or BMP WG later) is a natural venue for this work, = and I hope to continue developing it within the WG. At the same time, I app= reciate the opportunity to hear the views of the WG members about this, and I am open to further input and= review. Thanks.</div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"direction: ltr; line-height: normal;= margin: 0px; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, = Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"direction: ltr; line-height: normal;= margin: 0px; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, = Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"direction: ltr; line-height: normal;= margin: 0px; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, = Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"line-height: normal; margin: 0px; fo= nt-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helveti= ca, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Best,<br> Libin</div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"direction: ltr; line-height: normal;= margin: 0px; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, = Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <hr style=3D"display: inline-block; width: 98%;"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" style=3D"color: inherit; background-color: inheri= t;"> <div style=3D"direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: = 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <b>From:</b> [email protected] <[email protected]>= <br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 23, 2026 4:59 PM<br> <b>To:</b> [email protected] <[email protected]><br> <b>Cc:</b> [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <bmwg= @ietf.org><br> <b>Subject:</b> AW: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting Pac= ket Loss Observed by Active Performance Measurements</div> <div style=3D"direction: ltr;"> </div> </div> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> Hi Libin,</p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> thanks for your draft. The draft discusses the topic quite well, I think.</= p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> The question I have is addressed to the chairs and community: IPPM is chart= ered to specify metrics and metric measurement metrics. Your draft regards = result interpretation.</p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> - interpreting results is the reason, why measurements are collected.</p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> - is IPPM (or another IETF WG; if yes, which one) chartered for documentati= on or standardization of doc=92s as your draft?</p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> As my point isn=92t related to content and rather an organizational questio= n, I appreciate feedback of others who may be interested in the subject (co= ntent of your draft).</p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> Regards,</p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> Ruediger</p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p> <div style=3D"padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; border-top: 1pt solid rgb(225, 225, 225= );"> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><b>Von:<= /b> Libin Liu <[email protected]><br> <b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 14. Juli 2026 03:54<br> <b>An:</b> ippm <[email protected]>; bmwg <[email protected]><br> <b>Betreff:</b> [ippm] Fw: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpret= ing Packet Loss Observed by Active Performance Measurements</span></p> </div> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;">Dear All,</span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;"> </span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;">Following my previous email, I would like to = share a more detailed set of slides introducing draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-= considerations. The presentation provides more background on the motivation= , the interpretation problem, and the overall framework discussed in the draft.</span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;"> </span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;">The slides are available in the GitHub repo: = </span><span style=3D"color: blue;"><a href=3D"https://github.com/LibinLiu0= 189/draft-ippm-active-loss-considerations/blob/main/slides-ippm-active-loss= -considerations-00.pdf" id=3D"OWA8f36f4aa-6b65-1431-8f0b-704317125e79" clas= s=3D"OWAAutoLink" originalsrc=3D"https://github.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm= -active-loss-considerations/blob/main/slides-ippm-active-loss-consideration= s-00.pdf" data-auth=3D"NotApplicable" data-outlook-id=3D"b4824cb0-6610-43a4= -afcf-bfe69afa0b2c" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0= px;"><u>https://github.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm-active-loss-consideratio= ns/blob/main/slides-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.pdf</u></a></span></= p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;"> </span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;">If the topic is of interest, I would apprecia= te any comments or feedback. I would also be happy to discuss the work, eit= her in Vienna during IETF 126 or online.</span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;"> </span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;">Thank you very much.</span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;"> </span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;"> </span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;">Best,</span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;">Libin</span></p> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"color: black;"> </span></p> <hr align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; width: 9= 8%;"> <div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg" style=3D"color: inherit; background-color: inhe= rit;"> <p style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">= <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: bl= ack;"><b>From:</b> Libin Liu <</span><span style=3D"font-family: Ca= libri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><a href=3D"mailto:liulb= =3D40zgclab.edu.cn-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]" id=3D"OWAbf93d9a6-6873-03b4-6527-019a11c= e24c3" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" data-outlook-id=3D"7d193480-1d86-4d45-bbdf-9dd= d22c8066d" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><u>l= iulb=3D40zgclab.edu.cn-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]</u></a></span><span style=3D"font-fam= ily: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;">><br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 2, 2026 9:30 AM<br> <b>To:</b> </span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-siz= e: 11pt; color: blue;"><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" id=3D"OWA78ac5b92-d= d0f-af15-cbcc-21b7ec75838f" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" data-outlook-id=3D"21cc80= fb-0e05-4350-82a3-13a004708071" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; marg= in-bottom: 0px;"><u>[email protected]</u></a></span><span style=3D"font-family:= Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;"> <</span><spa= n style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"= ><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" id=3D"OWAf7ab26f2-4b26-e11c-6d4c-03896ced= ba1f" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" data-outlook-id=3D"b8b110b9-808d-4a78-8113-e11c= c8c24caf" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><u>ip= [email protected]</u></a></span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; = font-size: 11pt; color: black;">>; </span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; co= lor: blue;"><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" id=3D"OWAcadf35b8-5513-ee35-79= 40-c4efa4480a1b" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" data-outlook-id=3D"1d2a003b-c481-420= c-82be-bc224ba8f107" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px;"><u>[email protected]</u></a></span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, s= ans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;"> <</span><span style=3D"= font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" id=3D"OWA89c112b0-f87c-c910-9e53-f0764f934b13" class= =3D"OWAAutoLink" data-outlook-id=3D"f4dc8611-8c56-44a0-b51f-04af8a77c698" s= tyle=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><u>[email protected]= </u></a></span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: = 11pt; color: black;">><br> <b>Subject:</b> [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting Packet = Loss Observed by Active Performance Measurements</span></p> <p style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">= </p> </div> <p class=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing" style=3D"marg= in: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;">Dear All,<br> <br> I would like to draw your attention to a new draft that has recently been s= ubmitted: draft-liu-ippm-active-measurement-loss-considerations-00.<br> <br> This document discusses considerations for interpreting packet loss observe= d by active performance measurements. While measurement protocols and metri= cs accurately report observable outcomes such as packet loss, missing respo= nses, delay, and delay variation, these observations alone often do not reveal the underlying operational ca= use. Similar measurement results may arise from different conditions, inclu= ding congestion, forwarding failures, routing changes, filtering policies, = endpoint behavior, multipath forwarding, or validation-related packet discard. <br> <br> The document proposes a common interpretation framework that distinguishes = measured outcomes from inferred causes. It discusses how different operatio= nal conditions may affect the interpretation of packet loss, delay, and del= ay variation in active performance measurements, including one-way and two-way measurements, OWAMP, TWAMP, ST= AMP, and measurements over ECMP and link aggregation. The document also dis= cusses how additional operational context may assist operators and measurem= ent systems in reasoning about possible explanations for observed measurement results. The draft is available here= : </span> <span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><a href=3D"https://datatracke= r.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations/" id=3D"OWA924e525= f-81fa-c22c-b222-7e62ff1acc98" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" originalsrc=3D"https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations/" data-= auth=3D"NotApplicable" data-outlook-id=3D"da9f6cce-5dc5-46ed-ace1-683b91cda= 7fc" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><u>https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations/</u></a= ></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;">. The GitHub repository for the draft is also available here for issues, com= ments, and pull requests: </span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><a href=3D"https://git= hub.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm-active-loss-considerations" id=3D"OWA34e156= 83-4c07-280b-b948-3458f443d1d3" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" originalsrc=3D"https:= //github.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm-active-loss-considerations" data-auth= =3D"NotApplicable" data-outlook-id=3D"d4023496-0cf7-48b2-bd6d-38cf30a3a55e"= style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><u>https://git= hub.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm-active-loss-considerations</u></a></span><s= pan style=3D"font-size: 11pt;">.<br> <br> Comments, suggestions, and discussions would be greatly appreciated. I woul= d also be interested to hear whether similar interpretation challenges have= been encountered in operational deployments or existing measurement system= s, and whether there are additional scenarios that should be considered in the document.<br> <br> Thank you very much.<br> <br> <br> Best,<br> Libin<br> <br> > -----Original Messages-----<br> > From: </span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><a href=3D"= mailto:[email protected]" id=3D"OWA37135e46-42a4-f35c-12a5-32ca566aa= 376" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" data-outlook-id=3D"b6b8502c-25fa-4502-9c2e-18b7e= 0fbf16e" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><u>int= [email protected]</u></a></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;"><br> > Send time:Wednesday, 01/07/2026 17:09:28<br> > To: "Libin Liu" <</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; c= olor: blue;"><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" id=3D"OWAd4c53958-bd20-= 9b2d-848e-47afa43d3523" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" data-outlook-id=3D"06b5547d-6= 362-4eac-aa52-a580d5fe79fa" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-b= ottom: 0px;"><u>[email protected]</u></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:= 11pt;">><br> > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-consi= derations-00.txt<br> ><br> > A new version of Internet-Draft<br> > draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.txt has been successfully= <br> > submitted by Libin Liu and posted to the<br> > IETF repository.<br> ><br> > Name: draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-consideration= s<br> > Revision: 00<br> > Title: Considerations for Interpreting Packet Loss O= bserved by Active Performance Measurements<br> > Date: 2026-07-01<br> > Group: Individual Submission<br> > Pages: 30<br> > URL: </span><span style=3D"font-size: 11= pt; color: blue;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-liu-ippm= -active-loss-considerations-00.txt" id=3D"OWA75cb1fbc-8bbe-f962-7ae5-4b516a= ca284c" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" originalsrc=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/i= d/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.txt" data-auth=3D"NotApplica= ble" data-outlook-id=3D"1916b421-1b75-4964-9969-450a73d18354" style=3D"colo= r: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><u>https://www.ietf.org/arch= ive/id/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.txt</u></a></span><span= style=3D"font-size: 11pt;"><br> > Status: </span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: blue= ;"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-c= onsiderations/" id=3D"OWA41677abc-e4da-937e-5d52-143140437d40" class=3D"OWA= AutoLink" originalsrc=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-ac= tive-loss-considerations/" data-auth=3D"NotApplicable" data-outlook-id=3D"0= 0aa3351-4f12-4ba3-9593-c54a660ecf75" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px;= margin-bottom: 0px;"><u>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-ac= tive-loss-considerations/</u></a></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;"><b= r> > HTML: </span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; c= olor: blue;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-liu-ippm-acti= ve-loss-considerations-00.html" id=3D"OWAcf355649-3843-76b6-1323-d6e51ab565= 50" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" originalsrc=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/dr= aft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.html" data-auth=3D"NotApplicable= " data-outlook-id=3D"31066c4a-c31e-4f63-ad05-42d28c78ee91" style=3D"color: = blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><u>https://www.ietf.org/archive= /id/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.html</u></a></span><span s= tyle=3D"font-size: 11pt;"><br> > HTMLized: </span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><a href= =3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-consid= erations" id=3D"OWA95858fba-6a6b-0139-66c0-7223867b61d4" class=3D"OWAAutoLi= nk" originalsrc=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-liu-ippm-act= ive-loss-considerations" data-auth=3D"NotApplicable" data-outlook-id=3D"41d= b0261-9048-493a-8ff9-01c4a491a763" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; m= argin-bottom: 0px;"><u>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-liu-ippm= -active-loss-considerations</u></a></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;">= <br> ><br> ><br> > Abstract:<br> ><br> > Active performance measurement protocols and metrics= are commonly<br> > used to measure packet loss, delay, delay variation,= reachability,<br> > and path behavior. When an active measurement = packet is not<br> > received, a response is missing, or a measurement ex= change times out,<br> > the measurement result identifies the observable out= come but often<br> > does not identify the underlying cause.<br> ><br> > Loss observed by active performance measurements can= be associated<br> > with congestion, queue discard, link or forwarding f= ailures, routing<br> > changes, endpoint or reflector behavior, administrat= ive filtering,<br> > policing, multipath effects, or validation-related p= acket discard<br> > such as Source Address Validation (SAV). Diffe= rent operational<br> > conditions can produce similar measurement observati= ons, but they may<br> > have different meanings and require different troubl= eshooting<br> > actions.<br> ><br> > This document discusses considerations for interpret= ing packet loss<br> > observed by active performance measurements. I= t provides a common<br> > set of considerations for separating measured outcom= es from inferred<br> > causes, describes operational conditions that can le= ad to observed<br> > loss, discusses implications for one-way and two-way= measurements,<br> > delay and delay variation interpretation, OWAMP, TWA= MP, STAMP, and<br> > measurements over ECMP and link aggregation. I= t also discusses how<br> > some considerations may apply to hybrid and passive = performance<br> > measurements and identifies sources of operational c= ontext that can<br> > help operators and measurement systems reason about = possible<br> > explanations.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > The IETF Secretariat<br> ><br> _______________________________________________<br> bmwg mailing list -- </span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><= a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" id=3D"OWAdce983fc-dfa5-69fd-340d-720b4f43c8= 44" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" data-outlook-id=3D"b8d06556-deca-4b09-ad62-5d83bf= c0b006" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><u>bmwg= @ietf.org</u></a></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;"><br> To unsubscribe send an email to </span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; colo= r: blue;"><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" id=3D"OWA0778eff9-7311-6c4= 2-e2eb-476536c15cf8" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" data-outlook-id=3D"8ba4346b-a5e3= -48c2-b6c7-7891de377cbc" style=3D"color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bott= om: 0px;"><u>[email protected]</u></a></span></p> </div> </div> <p style=3D"font-size:8pt; line-height:10pt; font-family: 'Calibri', sans-s= erif;">This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and in= tended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addr= essed. 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