Re: [Geopriv] Adding GPS location to IPv6 header

Indeed, many operating systems now include a location API -- this has been =
driven by the mobile operating systems but is now included in other operati=
on systems such as Apples OS X.  These location API's use various technique=
s such as Wi-Fi, Cell, GPS, and IP positioning to attempt to determine the =
location of the device.  In general these services are invoked by various a=
pplications, but can also be utilized by the operating system itself.  Note=
 that use of this information, and access to these APIs is sometimes contro=
lled in order to require user permission for applications to access the loc=
ation of the device.

Any discussion of automatically including location information in device co=
mmunication needs a very thorough vetting with respect to privacy. Includin=
g precise latitude and longitude with every packet seems overkill.

How applications use this information (e.g. preferred language) is dependen=
t on the application and the user experience desired.  The same is true wit=
h how web sites use the location information provided via W3C's geolocation=
 API.  Many web sites do not take advantage of the W3C geolocation API as i=
t requires a pop-up notification to the user that many people find annoying=
 at best.


Kipp

.............................................. =

Kipp Jones
Chief Architect/Privacy Czar
[email protected]
m: 404.213.9293 | @skykipp

On Nov 12, 2012, at 3:14 AM, Mark Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

> IP addresses identify a device and it's location on the Internet, not it'=
s geographical location (although there is some correlation, assuming no tu=
nnels), or the person who is using it.
> =

> There is a Geolocation API for web browsers, perhaps it could be generali=
sed to suit other applications.
> =

>  http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html
> =

> To identify people, to then determine their attributes (e.g. their prefer=
red language), you have to use "attributes" of them, not the machine they'r=
e currently using or where it is located on the Internet e.g. what they kno=
w, what they are or what they have.
> =

> =

> =

> =

> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ammar Salih <[email protected]>
>> To: 'Eitan Adler' <[email protected]>
>> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
>> Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012 9:15 AM
>> Subject: RE: Adding GPS location to IPv6 header
>> =

>>> another good example would be webpage=92s language, my language will be =

>>> detected more accurately based on my area rather than my country,
>> =

>>> This is a very bad idea. There are already mechanisms for determining =

>>> preferred languages.  =

>> =

>> If those mechanisms are successful then why websites like google do not =
use =

>> them? They use IP address instead, and it's not always about http =

>> applications, how about VoIP applications, now you need another mechanis=
m? .. =

>> how about detecting your preferred language for layer-3 routing?
>> =

>> =

>>> In many cases people don't speak the language of the area they are =

>> located.
>> =

>> Not many cases, maybe only while you are travelling to certain places of=
 a =

>> language that you don't speak, in that rare case you can manually change=
 the =

>> language via whatever application you are using.
>> =

>> =

>>> as there are many countries with more than one popular language,  not =

>>> mentioning that many ip registrations does not even reflect the traffic=
  =

>>> originating country.
>> =

>>> Why does this need to be in the IP header? There already exist =

>>> application layer mechanisms for obtaining location information.
>>> Leaving it at the application layer also allows for appropriate privacy =

>>> UI controls.
>> =

>> I've explained this in previous parts of the document, mainly because =

>> Layer-3 devices won't be able to recognize the feature, and also to unif=
y =

>> the location implementations at different layers.
>> =

>>> Routing: Policy based routing, based on geo-location, like routing =

>>> predefined traffic through certain server or path, for different =

>>> purposes (security, manageability, serviceability like choosing =

>>> language, or routing traffic to specific cashing or proxy server based =

>>> on country .. etc)
>> =

>>> This is the only somewhat sane use case I could see for this informatio=
n. =

>>> Even then, location of the originating request isn't always the correct =

>>> item to route on.
>> =

>> It doesn't have to be always .. at least now you partially agree :)
>> =

>>> Copyright law: It happens when certain media/web content is not =

>>> allowed in certain countries due to copyright law, the current method =

>>> of determining locations is not accurate at all, on other hand, If =

>>> layer-7 application to be used then the user might be able to =

>>> manipulate the location field, in this case (if it=92s required in =

>>> future) the ISP can tag traffic with country/city more accurately as =

>>> traffic passes through ISP=92s boarder routers.
>> =

>>> The user can manipulate or control the lower layer IP traffic too. If =

>>> they can't this is an absurd privacy violation.
>> =

>> Users currently have absolutely *NO* control over IP<->location mapping, =

>> it's totally how your IP owner has registered the IP subnet, what I am =

>> suggesting is that your local ISP *can* tag the city location "if it's =

>> required", unless you want to share your exact location or set the locat=
ion =

>> to all zeros, in this case you are asking the ISP not to tag your locati=
on, but =

>> in this case you give up all location based services.
>> =

>> =

>>> Maps, navigation, emergency calls and many other services will be also =

>>> enhanced with accurate locations.
>> =

>>> Once again - this should be done at the application layer.
>> =

>>> Response: It does not have to be in every IPv6 header, only when there =

>>> is location update, also the host should have the option of not to =

>>> send location updates.
>> =

>>> Didn't you just mention above that information would be added by ISP =

>>> routers
>> =

>> I said under the copyright law section "(if it=92s required in future) t=
he =

>> ISP can tag traffic with country/city more accurately as traffic passes =
through =

>> ISP=92s boarder routers" ... which means the user has the option to put =

>> his/her real location, or set the location field to all zeros, or leave =
it =

>> without location tagging .. *BUT* if it's required by the government/or =
any =

>> other organization or third party in the future for the sake of protecti=
ng the =

>> copyright laws then the feature will be available to support that as wel=
l.
>> =

>>> Response: For shortest path maybe yes, hops or latency is important, =

>>> not for policy-based routing, in our case you might want to do =

>>> location-based routing, like, routing traffic coming from French =

>>> speaking users (in multi-language country like Canada) to google.fr
>> =

>>> I'm not sure what you mean here. It is easy to redirect users from =

>>> google.com -> google.fr based on their application layer language =

>>> preference.
>> =

>> Google.fr example is confusing many people, which I will modify, policy =
based =

>> routing has much more than routing tcp:80 traffic. =

>> =

>> --
>> Eitan Adler
>> =

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