[jose] Re: PQC Dialogue with Government Stakeholders Side-Me eting at IETF 122 Bangkok
John Mattsson <[email protected]> Fri, 28 Feb 2025 17:27:58 +0000
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--===============1681196097832662422== Content-Language: en-GB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_GVXPR07MB96787071F91639449265865889CC2GVXPR07MB9678eurp_" --_000_GVXPR07MB96787071F91639449265865889CC2GVXPR07MB9678eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The new updated procedures for side-meetings as well as some of the formula= tions in my mail seems to caused some confusion. This is a regular public side-meeting initiated by me John. Anybody can request a public side-meeting on any topic in one of the two si= de-meeting rooms including WebEx. Public side-meetings are not approved or = even reviewed by the IESG, and have no formal standing. https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/122/agenda https://www.ietf.org/forms/side-meetings/ https://trello.com/b/R7yDMPyl Some backstory on this particular public side-meeting: I commented earlier = in LAMPS and TLS that I thought it was inappropriate for IETF poeple to onl= y invite NIST and that it would be good to invite more countries for dialog= ue. After that, several IETF participants and government officials said tha= t they thought a public side-meeting on PQC would be a good idea. There has= also been a lot of discussion and speculation in several groups on what di= fferent countries recommend and require. The side-meeting is a public meeting where _anybody_ from _any_ country is = welcome. I do not represent the IETF in any way. I hope the meeting will le= ad to an open dialogue and increased understanding between IETF people and = government officials. The plan is not to have long presentations, but if _a= nybody_ want to show a few slides to foster discussion they are very welcom= e to do so. Cheers, John From: John Mattsson <[email protected]> Date: Friday, 28 February 2025 at 08:06 To: [email protected] <[email protected]>, IRTF CFRG <[email protected]>, [email protected]= g <[email protected]>, [email protected] <[email protected]>, [email protected] <jose@ietf= .org> Subject: PQC Dialogue with Government Stakeholders Side-Meeting at IETF 122= Bangkok Hi, There was significant interest from several countries to have a side-meetin= g on PQC at IETF 122 Bangkok, so Ericsson will organize such a meeting on M= onday 17 March 15.15 - 16.45 Bangkok time in Meeting Room 2 [40 seats] (ove= rlapping with Monday Session III). It is possible to attend remotely. https://trello.com/c/nH9exeWo Potential discussion topics are listed below. There might be a few short pr= esentations to foster discussion, but the plan is to focus on dialogue and = discussion between people in the IETF and government stakeholders. Cheers, John Preu=DF Mattsson Expert, Cryptographic Algorithms and Security Protocols, Ericsson Description Time: 15:15-16:45 Meeting Title: PQC Dialogue with Government Stakeholders IETF Webex: https://ietf.webex.com/meet/ietfsidemeeting2 Meeting Organizer: John Preu=DF Matsson, Ericsson and Alexander Engstr=F6m,= NDRE Email address: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]= > Meeting Description: Potential discussion topics: * Recommended PQC algorithms (KEMs and signatures) o ML-KEM, ML-DSA, SLH-DSA, FN-DSA, Classic McEliece, FrodoKEM, BIKE/HQC, XM= SS/LMS, =85 o Security category 1,2,3,4,5? Does it depend on algorithm and use case? * Timelines for PQC migration o When should migration begin? When will it be required? o Does it depend on user, use case, protection lifetime, hardware vs softwa= re, migration complexity, value of the protected node and data, scheduled h= ardware replacement, etc.? * Hybridization or standalone PQC o Difference between KEMs and Signatures o Differences between algorithms (e.g., lattice-based vs. hash-based) o Differences between use cases (e.g., confidentiality vs. authentication) o Is hybridization a short-term necessity or a long-term strategy? * Hybridization of PQC KEMs o Single vs. multiple PQC algorithms? Role of symmetric keys? o KEM combiners: general-purpose vs. optimized designs o Which traditional curves? X25519/X448, NIST P-curves, Brainpool, =85 * Hybridization of signatures o Role of symmetric keys? o Signature combiners, general or optimized? o Desired properties: SUF-CMA? Other security properties? o Which traditional signatures? EdDSA, ECDSA, RSA? * KDF and hash functions o ML-KEM and ML-DSA mandate SHA-3. o Time to move away from SHA-2/HMAC/HKDF/MGF? --_000_GVXPR07MB96787071F91639449265865889CC2GVXPR07MB9678eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:= //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1= 252"> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Aptos; panose-1:2 11 0 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;} h3 {mso-style-priority:9; 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mso-level-text:\F0B7 ; mso-level-tab-stop:72.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l1:level3 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0B7 ; mso-level-tab-stop:108.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l1:level4 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0B7 ; mso-level-tab-stop:144.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l1:level5 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0B7 ; mso-level-tab-stop:180.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l1:level6 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0B7 ; mso-level-tab-stop:216.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l1:level7 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0B7 ; mso-level-tab-stop:252.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l1:level8 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0B7 ; mso-level-tab-stop:288.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l1:level9 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0B7 ; mso-level-tab-stop:324.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} ol {margin-bottom:0cm;} ul {margin-bottom:0cm;} --></style> </head> <body lang=3D"en-SE" link=3D"#467886" vlink=3D"#96607D" style=3D"word-wrap:= break-word"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi,<o:p><= /o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbs= p;</o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The new u= pdated procedures for side-meetings as well as some of the formulation</spa= n><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">s</span><span s= tyle=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> in my mail seems to cause</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-langua= ge:EN-US">d</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"= > </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">some </spa= n><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">confusion.</span><span lang=3D= "EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">This is a= <b>regular public side-meeting initiated by me John</b>.</span><span lang= =3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Anybody c= an request a public side-meeting on any topic in one of the two side-meetin= g rooms including WebEx. Public side-meetings are not approved or even revi= ewed by the IESG, and have no formal standing.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><a href= =3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/122/agenda">https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/meeting/122/agenda</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><a href= =3D"https://www.ietf.org/forms/side-meetings/">https://www.ietf.org/forms/s= ide-meetings/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><a href= =3D"https://trello.com/b/R7yDMPyl">https://trello.com/b/R7yDMPyl</a><o:p></= o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:= p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Some back= story on this particular public side-meeting: I commented earlier in LAMPS = and TLS that I thought it was inappropriate for IETF poeple to only invite = NIST and that it would be good to invite more countries for dialogue. After that, several IETF participants and gov= ernment officials said that they thought a public side-meeting on PQC would= be a good idea. There has also been a lot of discussion and speculation in= several groups on what different countries recommend and require.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:= p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The </spa= n><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">side-</span><sp= an style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">meeting is a public meeting where _= anybody_ from _any_ country is welcome. I do not represent the IETF in any way. I hope the meeting will lead to an o= pen dialogue and increased understanding between IETF people and government= officials. The plan is not to have long presentations, but if _anybody_ wa= nt to show a few slides to foster discussion they are very welcome to do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:= p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Cheers,<o= :p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">John</spa= n><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div id=3D"mail-editor-reference-message-container"> <div> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon= t-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">John Mattsson <j= [email protected]><br> <b>Date: </b>Friday, 28 February 2025 at 08:06<br> <b>To: </b>[email protected] <[email protected]>, IRTF CFRG <[email protected]= rg>, [email protected] <[email protected]>, [email protected] <[email protected]= g>, [email protected] <[email protected]><br> <b>Subject: </b>PQC Dialogue with Government Stakeholders Side-Meeting at I= ETF 122 Bangkok<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <div id=3D"mail-editor-reference-message-container"> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">Hi,</= span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color= :#212121"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color= :#212121">There was</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">&n= bsp;significant interest from several countries to have a side-meeting on P= QC at IETF 122 Bangkok, so<span class=3D"apple-converted-space"> </spa= n></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">Eric= sson</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:1= 2.0pt;color:#212121"> </span></span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;co= lor:#212121">will organize such a meeting on Monday 17 March 15.15 - 16.45 Bangkok time</spa= n><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121"> in Meeting= Room 2 [40 seats] (overlapping with </span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Monday Session III</span><span lang= =3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">)</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0= pt;color:#212121">.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;co= lor:#212121"> It is possible to attend remotely.</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://trello.com/c/nH9exeWo" title=3D"h= ttps://trello.com/c/nH9exeWo"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">https://trel= lo.com/c/nH9exeWo</span></a><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color= :#212121"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color= :#212121">Potential discussion topics are listed below. There might be a fe= w short presentations to foster discussion, but the plan is to focus on dia= logue and discussion between people in the IETF and government stakeholders.</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color= :#212121"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">Cheer= s,</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">John<= /span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"f= ont-size:12.0pt;color:#212121"> </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty= le=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">Preu=DF Mattsson</span><o:p></o:p></p= > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color= :#212121">Expert, Cryptographic Algorithms and Security Protocols, Ericsson= </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color= :#212121"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <h3><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Description</span></h3> <p><strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Time</s= pan></strong>: 15:15-16:45<br> <strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Meeting Ti= tle:</span></strong> PQC Dialogue with Government Stakeholders<br> <strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">IETF Webex= :</span></strong> <a href=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/meet/ietfsidemeeting2" = title=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/meet/ietfsidemeeting2"> https://ietf.webex.com/meet/ietfsidemeeting2</a><br> <strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Meeting Or= ganizer</span></strong>: John Preu=DF Matsson, Ericsson and Alexander Engst= r=F6m, NDRE<br> <strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Email addr= ess</span></strong>: <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" title=3D"mailto:john.mattsson= @ericsson.com"> [email protected]</a></p> <p><strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Meeting= Description</span></strong>: Potential discussion topics:</p> <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D"fo= nt-size:12.0pt">Recommended PQC algorithms (KEMs and signatures)<br> o ML-KEM, ML-DSA, SLH-DSA, FN-DSA, Classic McEliece, FrodoKEM, BIKE/HQC, XM= SS/LMS, =85<br> o Security category 1,2,3,4,5? Does it depend on algorithm and use case?</s= pan></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Timelines for PQC migration<br> o When should migration begin? When will it be required?<br> o Does it depend on user, use case, protection lifetime, hardware vs softwa= re, migration complexity, value of the protected node and data, scheduled h= ardware replacement, etc.?</span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-= list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hybridization or stan= dalone PQC<br> o Difference between KEMs and Signatures<br> o Differences between algorithms (e.g., lattice-based vs. hash-based)<br> o Differences between use cases (e.g., confidentiality vs. authentication)<= br> o Is hybridization a short-term necessity or a long-term strategy?</span></= li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D= "font-size:12.0pt">Hybridization of PQC KEMs<br> o Single vs. multiple PQC algorithms? Role of symmetric keys?<br> o KEM combiners: general-purpose vs. optimized designs<br> o Which traditional curves? X25519/X448, NIST P-curves, Brainpool, =85</spa= n></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span styl= e=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hybridization of signatures<br> o Role of symmetric keys?<br> o Signature combiners, general or optimized?<br> o Desired properties: SUF-CMA? Other security properties?<br> o Which traditional signatures? EdDSA, ECDSA, RSA?</span></li><li class=3D"= MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p= t">KDF and hash functions<br> o ML-KEM and ML-DSA mandate SHA-3.<br> o Time to move away from SHA-2/HMAC/HKDF/MGF?</span></li></ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_GVXPR07MB96787071F91639449265865889CC2GVXPR07MB9678eurp_-- --===============1681196097832662422== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18Kam9zZSBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QgLS0gam9zZUBpZXRmLm9yZwpUbyB1bnN1YnNjcmliZSBzZW5kIGFuIGVtYWlsIHRv IGpvc2UtbGVhdmVAaWV0Zi5vcmcK --===============1681196097832662422==--