Re: [Bier] WGLC : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-07.txt
Jeff Tantsura <[email protected]> Sat, 17 Feb 2018 09:31:12 -0800
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--===============8121981252913074635== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-07D98455-F3CD-4B26-B1BE-C55006F2A6D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail-07D98455-F3CD-4B26-B1BE-C55006F2A6D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Regards, Jeff > On Feb 16, 2018, at 18:18, Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore) <andrew= [email protected]> wrote: >=20 > Agree, what Eric has is starting to look like a compromise. Let=E2=80=99s g= et the final text (wip) on the list asap. > =20 > Andrew > =20 > From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <[email protected]> > Date: Friday, February 16, 2018 at 11:08 PM > To: Eric Rosen <[email protected]>, Andrew Dolganow <andrew.dolganow@noki= a.com>, "(Ice) IJsbrand Wijnands" <[email protected]> > Cc: Greg Shepherd <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>, "is= [email protected]" <[email protected]>, Xiejingrong <[email protected]>, Ar= kadiy Gulko <[email protected]> > Subject: RE: [Bier] [Isis-wg] WGLC : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-07.tx= t > =20 > Eric - > =20 > From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:[email protected]]=20 > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 6:45 AM > To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <[email protected]>; Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia -= SG/Singapore) <[email protected]>; IJsbrand Wijnands <[email protected]= > > Cc: Greg Shepherd <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]; Xie= jingrong <[email protected]>; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Bier] [Isis-wg] WGLC : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-07.tx= t > =20 > Perhaps the following would be a good compromise (or perhaps not). >=20 > Have an eight-bit field whose values are taken from the "IGP Algorithms" R= egistry. >=20 > Have another eight-bit field whose values are taken from a new BIER-specif= ic registry. I don't know, maybe call it the "BIER Underlay Algorithm Modif= ier" registry. The way the underlay paths are computed for a given BIER sub= -domain is determined by the pair of codepoints: <IGP Algorithms codepoint, B= IER Underlay Algorithm Modifier codepoint>. >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Les:] Makes sense =E2=80=93 except I would think only when the BUAM =3D=3D= 0 do the values come from IGP registry. Other values for BUAM would require= a different set of definitions for the algorithm value. >=20 > Les >=20 >=20 > The default value for the "BIER Underlay Algorithm Modifier" field would b= e zero. The value zero in this field would mean "just use the IGP Algorith= ms field to figure out how the underlay paths are computed." Non-zero value= s could be used to add additional nuance. Existing drafts can say "the use o= f non-zero values in this field is outside the scope of this document".=20 >=20 > The registration policy for the new registry could save about half the va= lues for "standards action", and about half for FCFS. And a few for Experim= ental. (This would be a good policy for the IGP Algorithms registry as well= , imho.) >=20 > This seems to have minimal impact on existing implementations, and leaves r= oom for further development of BIER while avoiding entanglements (or peceive= d entanglements) with other technologies that might be considered controvers= ial. >=20 > Now perhaps the WG can proceed to the really important issues, such as how= to best design the T-shirts. (Though frankly I'd rather get a few more hom= e-brewed beers than a T-shirt.) >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2/16/2018 12:51 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > Andrew =E2=80=93 > =20 > There is no change being considered to the size of the algorithm field for= Segment Routing. That is 8 bits =E2=80=93 there are mature SR documents an= d multiple implementations that use that encoding. There is also the IGP reg= istry defined in an SR document (though not necessarily exclusively for SR u= se) which defines 8 bit values. > =20 > The only thing which is being discussed here is whether BIER should use an= 8 bit or 16 bit algorithm field. Also, even if it is decided BIER should us= e a 16 bit algorithm, it is conceivable that the values defined in the IGP a= lgorithm registry may still be of use to BIER. > =20 > Les > =20 > From: BIER [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dolganow, Andrew (N= okia - SG/Singapore) > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2018 7:39 PM > To: IJsbrand Wijnands <[email protected]> > Cc: Greg Shepherd <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]; Xie= jingrong <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Eric C R= osen <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Bier] [Isis-wg] WGLC : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-07.tx= t > =20 > Well, > =20 > Now, there are multiple treads being discussed here under one topic: > =20 > - how big should the the field be? > - should there be common registry for all technologies? > - where should it be defined and which WG should standardize it? > =20 > To me the first question is totally dependent on the answer to the last tw= o, since the use case pointed out suggests a common registry.=20 > =20 > Now there may be different opinions (I believe there are from this exchang= e) whether we should or should not have a common registry, how complicated w= ould it be and whether it would tax all groups trying to use that. But even b= efore we go there, the basic question has to be answered:=20 > - which WG would own that registry. It is not in a charter of BIER to own i= t nor it is in a charter of SR nor it is in a charter of ISIS. Do none of th= em should own and mandate use. We are chartering LSR now - should we add reg= istry for all IGP algorithms, we have routing WG, others? Would like to hea= r AD=E2=80=99s opinion. Note that although LSR appears obvious, the algorith= ms to compute BIER may be controller-based that do bot require LSR (same app= lies to SR).=20 > =20 > - if we do agree to have a common registry, I would assume we all then tax= everyone to signal that the same way. That would mean changes to SR and cha= nges to BIER.=20 > =20 > This seems a lot. We have implementations of both technologies, so are cha= nges to those warranted or is it too late and we should pursue independent a= lg definition and registry as it has been set-up in the existing drafts. And= we are talking only of those two but more WG will come and want to define t= hings for them as well.=20 > =20 >=20 > Andrew > =20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Feb 16, 2018, at 2:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <[email protected]> wrote: >=20 > I think its clear from the discussion there are different opinions on the m= atter on how to make BIER use the BAR field. The reason for me to support 16= bits is that everybody seemed ok go move forward with an 8bits BAR without a= registry, a 16bits BAR does not change anything, its just a bigger field. B= ut at least with 16bits, we can split in Type, Value, and support different u= se-cases. IMO, pointing to whatever the Unicast underlay is providing is the= main use-case, but it allows other ways to do things. > =20 > One thing is clear, with just 8bits, it will be very hard to reach an agre= ement what the registry would look like. If we make it 16bits, we know we ca= n solve multiple use-cases. The main question (I think) is whether we docum= ent how a 16bit BAR is carved up now, or we defer that to later. And as I sa= id, since everybody seemed ok with 8bit BAR without a registry, I don=E2=80=99= t see why its now different for 16bits. It gives us time to workout exactly h= ow to use it and get input from the WGs. > =20 > And, of course, the goal is to create a registry for the 16 bits through a= new draft! > =20 > Thx, > =20 > Ice. > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 15 Feb 2018, at 18:28, Tony Przygienda <[email protected]> wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Greg Shepherd <[email protected]> wrote: > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Tony Przygienda <[email protected]> wro= te: >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Greg Shepherd <[email protected]> wrote: > For the record, there is no SR Registry. There is only an IGP Algo Type Re= gistry as defined in draft-ietf-ospr-segment-routing-extensions-24 section 8= .5 >=20 > So is that a good idea, having multiple drafts in flight with fields expec= ting to have magic couplings to each other while leaving e'thing "unspecifie= d" to "publish RFCs" while we "decide things later"?=20 >=20 > That was a pivot, but still; there is no reference, there is no coupling.=20= >=20 > Tangental: draft-ietf-ospr-segment-routing-extensions-24 has been around f= or a while, and the IGP Algo registry will be tied to this draft and it's fa= te. If anyone is expecting to use this registry outside of the scope of this= draft, it would be in their best interest to pull the registry description o= ut into a separate draft. >=20 >=20 > OK, and I agree that if such a registry is pulled and under a clear charte= r of mandating multiple technologies within an independent body then a discu= ssion starts to make sense and what the size of that should be given that ma= ndates algorithms over multiple technologies (SR, unicast, mcast, whatever) a= nd implies a "God's eye view" of all the elements of all the technologies (a= nd if a computation touches elements from two technologies they become [opti= onally] coupled). We are not talking IGP registry or multicast computation r= egistry or SR registry then but a "wider scope registry". Yes, that is an in= triguing thought with its own validity but outside the scope of charter we'r= e under as BIER. Personally, I consider multiple, if needed loosely coupled= registries for each technology a less centralized and hence "more Internet l= ike" solution but I see how opinions on such a thing can diverge ...=20 >=20 > thanks >=20 > --- tony=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > [email protected] > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > =20 > <PastedGraphic-6.png> > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list > [email protected] > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > =20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > [email protected] > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --Apple-Mail-07D98455-F3CD-4B26-B1BE-C55006F2A6D4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">+1<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Re= gards,<div>Jeff</div></div><div><br>On Feb 16, 2018, at 18:18, Dolganow, And= rew (Nokia - SG/Singapore) <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"ci= te"><div> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; color:black;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0 {mso-style-name:msonormal; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; color:black;} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D;} span.EmailStyle19 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f= amily:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">Agree, what Eric has is starting to look like a compromise. Let=E2=80=99= s get the final text (wip) on the list asap.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f= amily:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f= amily:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f= amily:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0= cm 0cm"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b>From: </b>"Les Ginsbe= rg (ginsberg)" <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]<= /a>><br> <b>Date: </b>Friday, February 16, 2018 at 11:08 PM<br> <b>To: </b>Eric Rosen <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">erosen@junip= er.net</a>>, Andrew Dolganow <<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.dolganow@nokia.= com">[email protected]</a>>, "(Ice) IJsbrand Wijnands" <<a hre= f=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>><br> <b>Cc: </b>Greg Shepherd <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">gjshep@gmai= l.com</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>" <<a h= ref=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:isis-= [email protected]">[email protected]</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">i= [email protected]</a>>, Xiejingrong <<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawe= i.com">[email protected]</a>>, Arkadiy Gulko <<a href=3D"mailto:a= [email protected]">[email protected]</a>><br= > <b>Subject: </b>RE: [Bier] [Isis-wg] WGLC : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-= 07.txt<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size= :11.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><a name=3D"_MailOriginal= Body"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-s= erif;color:#1F497D">Eric -</span><o:p></o:p></a></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p> <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4= .0pt"> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0= cm 0cm"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"= Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b></span><span styl= e=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa= mily:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"> Eric C Rosen [<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]= et</a>] <br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 16, 2018 6:45 AM<br> <b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"= >[email protected]</a>>; Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore) <<a h= ref=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; I= Jsbrand Wijnands <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>><= br> <b>Cc:</b> Greg Shepherd <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">gjshep@gmai= l.com</a>>; <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>; <a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>; Xiejingrong <<a href=3D"m= ailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; <a href=3D"mai= lto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><b= r> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bier] [Isis-wg] WGLC : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-= 07.txt</span><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;marg= in-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt"> <span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">Perhaps the following would b= e a good compromise (or perhaps not).<br> <br> Have an eight-bit field whose values are taken from the "IGP Algorithms" Reg= istry.<br> <br> Have another eight-bit field whose values are taken from a new BIER-specific= registry. I don't know, maybe call it the "BIER Underlay Algorithm Mo= difier" registry. The way the underlay paths are computed for a given B= IER sub-domain is determined by the pair of codepoints: <IGP Algorithms codepoint, BIER Underlay Algorithm Modifi= er codepoint>.<br> <br> <br> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;marg= in-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt"> <span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><b><i><span style=3D"font-siz= e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[Les:] Ma= kes sense =E2=80=93 except I would think only when the BUAM =3D=3D 0 do the v= alues come from IGP registry. Other values for BUAM would require a different set of definitions for the algorithm value.</span></i><= /b><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;marg= in-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt"> <span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><b><i><span style=3D"font-siz= e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> &nb= sp; Les</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;marg= in-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt"> <span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><br> The default value for the "BIER Underlay Algorithm Modifier" field would be z= ero. The value zero in this field would mean "just use the IGP A= lgorithms field to figure out how the underlay paths are computed." No= n-zero values could be used to add additional nuance. Existing drafts can say "the use of non-zero values in this f= ield is outside the scope of this document". <br> <br> The registration policy for the new registry could save about half the= values for "standards action", and about half for FCFS. And a few for= Experimental. (This would be a good policy for the IGP Algorithms reg= istry as well, imho.)<br> <br> This seems to have minimal impact on existing implementations, and leaves ro= om for further development of BIER while avoiding entanglements (or peceived= entanglements) with other technologies that might be considered controversi= al.<br> <br> Now perhaps the WG can proceed to the really important issues, such as how t= o best design the T-shirts. (Though frankly I'd rather get a few more h= ome-brewed beers than a T-shirt.)<br> <br> <br> <br> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">On 2/16/2018 12:51 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:= <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Andrew =E2=80=93</span><o:p></o:p></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There is no change being considered to t= he size of the algorithm field for Segment Routing. That is 8 bits =E2=80=93 there are mature SR documents and multiple impleme= ntations that use that encoding. There is also the IGP registry defined in a= n SR document (though not necessarily exclusively for SR use) which defines 8= bit values.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The only thing which is being discussed= here is whether BIER should use an 8 bit or 16 bit algorithm field. Also, even if it is decided BIER should use a 16 bit a= lgorithm, it is conceivable that the values defined in the IGP algorithm reg= istry may still be of use to BIER.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> Les</span><o:p></o:p></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p> <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4= .0pt"> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0= cm 0cm"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"= Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b></span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark= :_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibr= i",sans-serif"> BIER [</span></span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D= "mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family= :"Calibri",sans-serif">mailto:[email protected]</span></span><= span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-= bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo= t;Calibri",sans-serif">] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)<br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 15, 2018 7:39 PM<br> <b>To:</b> IJsbrand Wijnands </span></span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">= <span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0= pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><[email protected]></span><= /span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span style=3D= "mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family= :"Calibri",sans-serif"><br> <b>Cc:</b> Greg Shepherd </span></span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><= span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p= t;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><[email protected]></span= ></span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span styl= e=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa= mily:"Calibri",sans-serif">; </span></span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_= MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri&= quot;,sans-serif">[email protected]</span></span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_Ma= ilOriginalBody"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><s= pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">; </span></span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"mso-bookmar= k:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib= ri",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></span><span style=3D"mso-bookma= rk:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBo= dy"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-ser= if">; Xiejingrong </span></span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span s= tyle=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font= -family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><[email protected]></span= ></span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span styl= e=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa= mily:"Calibri",sans-serif">; </span></span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span styl= e=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa= mily:"Calibri",sans-serif">[email protected]</span>= </span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span style= =3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam= ily:"Calibri",sans-serif">; Eric C Rosen </span></span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span styl= e=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa= mily:"Calibri",sans-serif"><[email protected]></span></span= ><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span style=3D"ms= o-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q= uot;Calibri",sans-serif"><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bier] [Isis-wg] WGLC : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-= 07.txt</span><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">Well, <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">Now, there are multiple treads being discussed here u= nder one topic:<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">- how big should the the field be?<o:p></o:p></span><= /p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">- should there be common registry for all technologie= s?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">- where should it be defined and which WG should stan= dardize it?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">To me the first question is totally dependent on the a= nswer to the last two, since the use case pointed out suggests a common regi= stry. <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">Now there may be different opinions (I believe there a= re from this exchange) whether we should or should not have a common registr= y, how complicated would it be and whether it would tax all groups trying to use that. But even before we go t= here, the basic question has to be answered: <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">- which WG would own that registry. It is not in a ch= arter of BIER to own it nor it is in a charter of SR nor it is in a charter o= f ISIS. Do none of them should own and mandate use. We are chartering LSR now - should we add registry for all= IGP algorithms, we have routing WG, others? Would like to hear AD=E2=80= =99s opinion. Note that although LSR appears obvious, the algorithms to comp= ute BIER may be controller-based that do bot require LSR (same applies to SR). <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">- if we do agree to have a common registry, I would a= ssume we all then tax everyone to signal that the same way. That would mean c= hanges to SR and changes to BIER. <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">This seems a lot. We have implementations of both tec= hnologies, so are changes to those warranted or is it too late and we should= pursue independent alg definition and registry as it has been set-up in the existing drafts. And we are talki= ng only of those two but more WG will come and want to define things for the= m as well. <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;marg= in-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt"> <span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">Andrew <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;marg= in-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt"> <span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><br> On Feb 16, 2018, at 2:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <</span><a href=3D"mailto:= [email protected]"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">[email protected]<= /span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span style=3D= "mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">I think its clear from the discussion there are diffe= rent opinions on the matter on how to make BIER use the BAR field. The reaso= n for me to support 16 bits is that everybody seemed ok go move forward with an 8bits BAR without a registry, a= 16bits BAR does not change anything, its just a bigger field. But at least w= ith 16bits, we can split in Type, Value, and support different use-cases. IM= O, pointing to whatever the Unicast underlay is providing is the main use-case, but it allows other way= s to do things.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">One thing is clear, with just 8bits, it will be very h= ard to reach an agreement what the registry would look like. If we make it 1= 6bits, we know we can solve multiple use-cases. The main question (I think) is whether we document how a 16bit B= AR is carved up now, or we defer that to later. And as I said, since everybo= dy seemed ok with 8bit BAR without a registry, I don=E2=80=99t see why its n= ow different for 16bits. It gives us time to workout exactly how to use it and get input from the WGs.<o:p></o:p= ></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">And, of course, the goal is to create a registry for t= he 16 bits through a new draft!<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">Thx,<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">Ice.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><br> <br> <br> <br> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">On 15 Feb 2018, at 18:28, Tony Przygienda <</span>= <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOrig= inalBody">[email protected]</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOrigina= lBody"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">> wrote:<br> <br> <br> <br> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Greg Shepherd <</span><a href=3D"ma= ilto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">gjshep= @gmail.com</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><= span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">> wrote:<br> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Tony Przygienda <</span><a href=3D"= mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">t= [email protected]</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></sp= an></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">> wrote:<br> <br> <br> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Greg Shepherd <</span><a href=3D"ma= ilto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">gjshep= @gmail.com</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><= span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">> wrote:<br> For the record, there is no SR Registry. There is only an IGP Algo Type Regi= stry as defined in draft-ietf-ospr-segment-routing-extensions-24 section 8.5= <br> <br> So is that a good idea, having multiple drafts in flight with fields expecti= ng to have magic couplings to each other while leaving e'thing "unspeci= fied" to "publish RFCs" while we "decide things later"? <br> <br> That was a pivot, but still; there is no reference, there is no coupling.&nb= sp;<br> <br> Tangental: draft-ietf-ospr-segment-routing-extensions-24 has been around for= a while, and the IGP Algo registry will be tied to this draft and it's= fate. If anyone is expecting to use this registry outside of the scope of t= his draft, it would be in their best interest to pull the registry description out into a separate draft.<br> <br> <br> OK, and I agree that if such a registry is pulled and under a clear charter o= f mandating multiple technologies within an independent body then a dis= cussion starts to make sense and what the size of that should be given that m= andates algorithms over multiple technologies (SR, unicast, mcast, whatever) and implies a "God's eye view" o= f all the elements of all the technologies (and if a computation touche= s elements from two technologies they become [optionally] coupled). We= are not talking IGP registry or multicast computation registry or SR registry then but a "wider scope registry". Yes,= that is an intriguing thought with its own validity but outside the sc= ope of charter we're under as BIER. Personally, I consider multip= le, if needed loosely coupled registries for each technology a less centralized and hence "more Internet like" solu= tion but I see how opinions on such a thing can diverge ... <br> <br> thanks<br> <br> --- tony <br> <br> <br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> BIER mailing list<br> </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOri= ginalBody">[email protected]</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody= "></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><br> </span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www= .ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0U= jBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D-DXB84eU9m4cIlq2OOcCJCQQAwJXQQswyu3F0kG0VNo&a= mp;m=3D6OA-v6Lzq8oR77r5sobl4BRPQbtAOImezBFZ2ljFIHA&s=3DvxlvDI3ihNiRYhMD9= FOOhdgHsUytgoyTrVRAkLXqc5U&e=3D"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOrigin= alBody">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</span><span style=3D"mso-= bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOrig= inalBody"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </blockquote> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"><PastedGraphic-6.png><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> </blockquote> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody">_______________________________________________<br> Isis-wg mailing list<br> </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_Mail= OriginalBody">[email protected]</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOrigin= alBody"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><br> </span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www= .ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_isis-2Dwg&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Sc= bfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D-DXB84eU9m4cIlq2OOcCJCQQAwJXQQswyu3F0kG0= VNo&m=3D6OA-v6Lzq8oR77r5sobl4BRPQbtAOImezBFZ2ljFIHA&s=3DgRpwwZhHBYgy= 3mRmJHvKkTmqciLemxC0YhCk0qAATNg&e=3D"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailO= riginalBody">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg</span><span style= =3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_= MailOriginalBody"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </blockquote> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-bookm= ark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> </div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________= ___________________________</span><br><span>BIER mailing list</span><br><spa= n><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a></span><br><span><a href= =3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier">https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/bier</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-07D98455-F3CD-4B26-B1BE-C55006F2A6D4-- --===============8121981252913074635== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg --===============8121981252913074635==--