Re: I-D Action: draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext-00.txt
"Phillips, Addison" <[email protected]> Sun, 26 May 2019 06:10:23 +0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.languages |
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| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--===============0047981030647200942== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9mnr0iv2pvuxyl2gdgws08w41558851016586emailandroidcom_" --_000_9mnr0iv2pvuxyl2gdgws08w41558851016586emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a discussion in the W3C space (and particularly the Linked Data, I= ..e. the RDF/JSON-LD space) about this. I happen to think Manu has jumped th= e gun, but it is an internet draft and thus is meant to spark discussion of= this sort. When I'm at a real computer in the morning I'll send some links= for those interested in this debate. On May 25, 2019, at 19:29, "Martin J. D=FCrst" <[email protected]> wro= te: I just found the following announcement (see end of this email). I'm forwarding it to the ietf-languages list because that's where a lot of the language tagging experts are. (Manu, I suggest you subscribe to this list for the duration of this discussion, to make sure you are not missing any comments.) The draft is very short. Having had a quick look at it, I came up with the following comments: - The (only) example, "ar-d-rtl", doesn't exactly reflect what we consider good language tagging practice. It's similar to something such as en-Latn, where the "Latn" script subtag is just plain obvious and therefore not needed. So some examples that show more clear cases where the directionality information is necessary should be given. - There is quite a bit of information about duplicate extensions and canonicalization. As far as I understand, this is just repetition from RFC 5646, but this should be stated more clearly. Maybe move the text about duplication to the canonicalization (sub (1))section, and start that section with a sentence saying: "This section explains the rules regarding duplicate information and canonicalization defined in RFC 5646. The full rules are given in RFC 5646, and in case of conflicts, RFC 5646 is correct." - There's absolutely no text about where this extension would be helpful or useful. As far as I understand, it's not appropriate e.g. for HTML, because HTML has the dir attribute. There should be a clear discussion about places where this extension is desirable (maybe even needed) and places where it's irrelevant, useless, confusing, or counterproductive. - There should be a discussion about how this extension interacts (or not) with "bidi formatting characters". - There should be some text about what "auto" exactly means. It's probably something like "first strong", but it could be something else (e.g. majority of strong,...) - There may also be a need for a subtag meaning "just follow the context around you", which is different from "auto". - The registration form gives a mailing list of [email protected]. While this may be the mailing list where the idea for this kind of extension originated, it doesn't feel like being the right place for discussions that may come up e.g. 5 or 10 years down the line. - I'd make canonicalization, as well as examples, independent sections and in any case eliminate the third level of the TOC hierarchy (the current 2.1.1). Regards, Martin. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext-00.txt Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 14:12:29 -0700 From: [email protected] Reply-To: [email protected] To: [email protected] A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : BCP 47 Extension D Author : Manu Sporny Filename : draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext-00.txt Pages : 4 Date : 2019-05-25 Abstract: This document specifies an Extension to BCP 47 which provides subtags that specify language direction. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt ... _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages --_000_9mnr0iv2pvuxyl2gdgws08w41558851016586emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Exchange Server"> <!-- converted from text --><style><!-- .EmailQuote { margin-left: 1pt; pad= ding-left: 4pt; border-left: #800000 2px solid; } --></style> </head> <body> <style> <!-- --> </style> <div><font face=3D"Calibri"> <p dir=3D"ltr">There is a discussion in the W3C space (and particularly the= Linked Data, I.e. the RDF/JSON-LD space) about this. I happen to think Man= u has jumped the gun, but it is an internet draft and thus is meant to spar= k discussion of this sort. When I'm at a real computer in the morning I'll send some links for those intereste= d in this debate.</p> <br> <br> On May 25, 2019, at 19:29, "Martin J. D=FCrst" <[email protected]= ma.ac.jp> wrote:<br> <br> </font></div> <font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;"> <div class=3D"PlainText">I just found the following announcement (see end o= f this email).<br> <br> I'm forwarding it to the ietf-languages list because that's where a lot <br= > of the language tagging experts are.<br> <br> (Manu, I suggest you subscribe to this list for the duration of this <br> discussion, to make sure you are not missing any comments.)<br> <br> The draft is very short. Having had a quick look at it, I came up with <br> the following comments:<br> <br> - The (only) example, "ar-d-rtl", doesn't exactly reflect what we= <br> consider good language tagging practice. It's similar to somet= hing<br> such as en-Latn, where the "Latn" script subtag is j= ust plain obvious<br> and therefore not needed. So some examples that show more clea= r<br> cases where the directionality information is necessary should= be<br> given.<br> <br> - There is quite a bit of information about duplicate extensions and<br> canonicalization. As far as I understand, this is just repetit= ion<br> from RFC 5646, but this should be stated more clearly. Maybe m= ove<br> the text about duplication to the canonicalization (sub (1))se= ction,<br> and start that section with a sentence saying: "This sect= ion explains<br> the rules regarding duplicate information and canonicalization= <br> defined in RFC 5646. The full rules are given in RFC 5646, and= in<br> case of conflicts, RFC 5646 is correct."<br> <br> - There's absolutely no text about where this extension would be<br> helpful or useful. As far as I understand, it's not appropriat= e<br> e.g. for HTML, because HTML has the dir attribute. There shoul= d<br> be a clear discussion about places where this extension is<br> desirable (maybe even needed) and places where it's irrelevant= ,<br> useless, confusing, or counterproductive.<br> <br> - There should be a discussion about how this extension interacts<br> (or not) with "bidi formatting characters".<br> <br> - There should be some text about what "auto" exactly means.<br> It's probably something like "first strong", but it = could<br> be something else (e.g. majority of strong,...)<br> <br> - There may also be a need for a subtag meaning "just follow<br> the context around you", which is different from "au= to".<br> <br> - The registration form gives a mailing list of<br> [email protected]. While this may be the mailing list<= br> where the idea for this kind of extension originated, it doesn= 't<br> feel like being the right place for discussions that may come = up<br> e.g. 5 or 10 years down the line.<br> <br> - I'd make canonicalization, as well as examples, independent<br> sections and in any case eliminate the third level of the TOC<= br> hierarchy (the current 2.1.1).<br> <br> Regards, Martin.<br> <br> -------- Forwarded Message --------<br> Subject: I-D Action: draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext-00.txt<br> Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 14:12:29 -0700<br> From: [email protected]<br> Reply-To: [email protected]<br> To: [email protected]<br> <br> <br> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts <br> directories.<br> <br> <br> Title &nb= sp; : BCP 47 Extension D<br> Author &n= bsp; : Manu Sporny<br> Filename = : draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext-00.txt<br> Pages &nb= sp; : 4<br> Date &nbs= p; : 2019-05-25<br> <br> Abstract:<br> This document specifies an Extension to BCP 47 which pro= vides subtags<br> that specify language direction.<br> <br> <br> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br> <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext/">h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext/</a><br> <br> There are also htmlized versions available at:<br> <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext-00">http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext-00</a><br> <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-msporny-d-langtag-ex= t-00">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-msporny-d-langtag-ext-00<= /a><br> <br> <br> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n<br> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.<br> <br> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br> <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet= -drafts/</a><br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> I-D-Announce mailing list<br> [email protected]<br> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce">https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a><br> Internet-Draft directories: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html">htt= p://www.ietf.org/shadow.html</a><br> or <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org= /ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><br> ...<br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Ietf-languages mailing list<br> [email protected]<br> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages">https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</a><br> </div> </span></font> </body> </html> --_000_9mnr0iv2pvuxyl2gdgws08w41558851016586emailandroidcom_-- --===============0047981030647200942== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages --===============0047981030647200942==--