Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
"Doug Ewell" <[email protected]> Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:02:03 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.languages |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0788813760618163622== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01D5A555.295B4C30" Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01D5A555.295B4C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CLDR has a lot of this type of best-guess fallback data: if someone = speaks Breton but we don=E2=80=99t have a Breton localization, offer = them French instead, but don=E2=80=99t go the other way. =EF=BF=BD I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s something we would want to embed in = BCP 47 or the Registry at all (not that Shawn was suggesting that). =EF=BF=BD Shawn wrote: =EF=BF=BD > It=E2=80=99s still unclear to me if a =E2=80=9Csigned modality of = English=E2=80=9D would be > interesting enough (and consistent enough) to warrant a subtag. It > sounds like the answer is probably =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D. =EF=BF=BD The =E2=80=9Cinteresting=E2=80=9D part puzzles me, because the whole = point of this thread is that a group has come to ISO 639-3 and to this = list, making the case that it is important to have such tagging. =EF=BF=BD -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org =EF=BF=BD From: Peter Constable <[email protected]>=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 17:27 To: Shawn Steele <[email protected]>; Doug Ewell = <[email protected]>; 'ietf-languages' <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for = sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the = representation of an individual language in "sign language modality" =EF=BF=BD I think it=E2=80=99s rarely safe to make assumptions about other = languages someone might use if going in the direction of lower = likelihood. So, if someone indicates they speak (say) Ainu, it=E2=80=99s = probably _somewhat_ safe to assume they can also speak Japanese; but it = certainly wouldn=E2=80=99t be safe to assume that, if a speaker of = Japanese also speaks other languages, then Ainu would be one of them. =EF=BF=BD If I know that someone speaks English (native speaker, or maybe 2nd = language?), and that they also speak a signed language, maybe that sign = language is ASL, but it might also be Maritime Sign Language, or = Hawai=E2=80=99I Sign Language, or Kenyan Sign Language, etc. At a = minimum, I probably need much more info to make reduce risk of bad = inferences, and probably I shouldn=E2=80=99t make inferences at all but = should let them indicate explicitly all of their language preferences. =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Peter ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01D5A555.295B4C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Consolas; panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0 {mso-style-name:msonormal; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} span.EmailStyle19 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} ..MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>CLDR has a = lot of this type of best-guess fallback data: if someone speaks Breton = but we don=E2=80=99t have a Breton localization, offer them French = instead, but don=E2=80=99t go the other way.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I = don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s something we would want to embed in BCP = 47 or the Registry at all (not that Shawn was suggesting = that).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Shawn wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> = It=E2=80=99s still unclear to me if a =E2=80=9Csigned modality of = English=E2=80=9D would be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> = interesting enough (and consistent enough) to warrant a subtag. = It<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> sounds like the answer is = probably =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The = =E2=80=9Cinteresting=E2=80=9D part puzzles me, because the whole point = of this thread is that a group has come to ISO 639-3 and to this list, = making the case that it is important to have such = tagging.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white'>--<o:p></o:p>= </span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white'>Doug Ewell | = Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Peter Constable = <[email protected]> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 27, = 2019 17:27<br><b>To:</b> Shawn Steele = <[email protected]>; Doug Ewell <[email protected]>; = 'ietf-languages' <[email protected]><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: = [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages = (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an = individual language in "sign language = modality"<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I think = it=E2=80=99s rarely safe to make assumptions about other languages = someone might use if going in the direction of lower likelihood. So, if = someone indicates they speak (say) Ainu, it=E2=80=99s probably = _<i>somewhat</i>_ safe to assume they can also speak Japanese; but it = certainly wouldn=E2=80=99t be safe to assume that, if a speaker of = Japanese also speaks other languages, then Ainu would be one of = them.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>If I know that someone speaks English (native speaker, = or maybe 2<sup>nd</sup> language?), and that they also speak a signed = language, maybe that sign language is ASL, but it might also be Maritime = Sign Language, or Hawai=E2=80=99I Sign Language, or Kenyan Sign = Language, etc. At a minimum, I probably need much more info to make = reduce risk of bad inferences, and probably I shouldn=E2=80=99t make = inferences at all but should let them indicate explicitly all of their = language preferences.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Peter<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01D5A555.295B4C30-- --===============0788813760618163622== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages --===============0788813760618163622==--