Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
Shawn Steele <[email protected]> Fri, 29 Nov 2019 20:56:10 +0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.languages |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <SN6PR2101MB0989519B8C882788B5470CEE82460@SN6PR2101MB0989.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> |
--===============7031151085447991607== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN6PR2101MB0989519B8C882788B5470CEE82460SN6PR2101MB0989_" --_000_SN6PR2101MB0989519B8C882788B5470CEE82460SN6PR2101MB0989_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is there additional information available about the problem they're trying = to solve with this request? Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> ________________________________ From: Doug Ewell <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 6:02:03 PM To: Peter Constable <[email protected]>; Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@mi= crosoft.com>; 'ietf-languages' <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign = languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an= individual language in "sign language modality" CLDR has a lot of this type of best-guess fallback data: if someone speaks = Breton but we don=92t have a Breton localization, offer them French instead= , but don=92t go the other way. I don=92t think it=92s something we would want to embed in BCP 47 or the Re= gistry at all (not that Shawn was suggesting that). Shawn wrote: > It=92s still unclear to me if a =93signed modality of English=94 would be > interesting enough (and consistent enough) to warrant a subtag. It > sounds like the answer is probably =93no=94. The =93interesting=94 part puzzles me, because the whole point of this thre= ad is that a group has come to ISO 639-3 and to this list, making the case = that it is important to have such tagging. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org From: Peter Constable <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 17:27 To: Shawn Steele <[email protected]>; Doug Ewell <[email protected]= >; 'ietf-languages' <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign = languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an= individual language in "sign language modality" I think it=92s rarely safe to make assumptions about other languages someon= e might use if going in the direction of lower likelihood. So, if someone i= ndicates they speak (say) Ainu, it=92s probably _somewhat_ safe to assume t= hey can also speak Japanese; but it certainly wouldn=92t be safe to assume = that, if a speaker of Japanese also speaks other languages, then Ainu would= be one of them. If I know that someone speaks English (native speaker, or maybe 2nd languag= e?), and that they also speak a signed language, maybe that sign language i= s ASL, but it might also be Maritime Sign Language, or Hawai=92I Sign Langu= age, or Kenyan Sign Language, etc. At a minimum, I probably need much more = info to make reduce risk of bad inferences, and probably I shouldn=92t make= inferences at all but should let them indicate explicitly all of their lan= guage preferences. Peter --_000_SN6PR2101MB0989519B8C882788B5470CEE82460SN6PR2101MB0989_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1= 252"> </head> <body> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami= ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; "> Is there additional information available about the problem they're trying = to solve with this request? <br> <br> </div> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami= ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; "> <span id=3D"OutlookSignature"> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami= ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; "> Get <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/ghei36">Outlook for Android</a></div> </span><br> </div> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st= yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Doug Ewell <doug@e= wellic.org><br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 27, 2019 6:02:03 PM<br> <b>To:</b> Peter Constable <[email protected]>; Shawn Steele <= ;[email protected]>; 'ietf-languages' <[email protected]= rg><br> <b>Subject:</b> RE: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers fo= r sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representatio= n of an individual language in "sign language modality"</font> <div> </div> </div> <style> <!-- @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"} @font-face {font-family:Calibri} @font-face {font-family:Consolas} p.x_MsoNormal, li.x_MsoNormal, div.x_MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif} a:link, span.x_MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline} a:visited, span.x_MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline} p.x_msonormal0, li.x_msonormal0, div.x_msonormal0 {margin-right:0in; margin-left:0in; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif} span.x_EmailStyle19 {font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext} span.x_EmailStyle20 {font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext} ..x_MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt} @page WordSection1 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in} div.x_WordSection1 {} --> </style> <div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"> <div class=3D"x_WordSection1"> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">CLDR has a lot of this type of best-guess fallback= data: if someone speaks Breton but we don=92t have a Breton localization, = offer them French instead, but don=92t go the other way.</p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"> </p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">I don=92t think it=92s something we would want to = embed in BCP 47 or the Registry at all (not that Shawn was suggesting that)= ..</p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"> </p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Shawn wrote:</p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"> </p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">> It=92s still unclear to me if a =93signed mod= ality of English=94 would be</p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">> interesting enough (and consistent enough) to= warrant a subtag. It</p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">> sounds like the answer is probably =93no=94.<= /p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"> </p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">The =93interesting=94 part puzzles me, because the= whole point of this thread is that a group has come to ISO 639-3 and to th= is list, making the case that it is important to have such tagging.</p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"> </p> <div> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas; color:black; = background:white">--</span></p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas; color:black; = background:white">Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org</span></p> </div> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"> </p> <div> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i= n 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Peter Constable <petercon@microsof= t.com> <br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 27, 2019 17:27<br> <b>To:</b> Shawn Steele <[email protected]>; Doug Ewell <= [email protected]>; 'ietf-languages' <[email protected]><br> <b>Subject:</b> RE: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers fo= r sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representatio= n of an individual language in "sign language modality"</p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"> </p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">I think it=92s rarely safe to make assumptions abo= ut other languages someone might use if going in the direction of lower lik= elihood. So, if someone indicates they speak (say) Ainu, it=92s probably _<= i>somewhat</i>_ safe to assume they can also speak Japanese; but it certainly wouldn=92t be safe to assume that, i= f a speaker of Japanese also speaks other languages, then Ainu would be one= of them.</p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"> </p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">If I know that someone speaks English (native spea= ker, or maybe 2<sup>nd</sup> language?), and that they also speak a signed = language, maybe that sign language is ASL, but it might also be Maritime Si= gn Language, or Hawai=92I Sign Language, or Kenyan Sign Language, etc. At a minimum, I probably need much more info= to make reduce risk of bad inferences, and probably I shouldn=92t make inf= erences at all but should let them indicate explicitly all of their languag= e preferences.</p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"> </p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"> </p> <p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Peter</p> </div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_SN6PR2101MB0989519B8C882788B5470CEE82460SN6PR2101MB0989_-- --===============7031151085447991607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages --===============7031151085447991607==--