Re: Forms for subtag kmpre20c
<[email protected]> Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:47:42 -0300
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This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============6806243878094549652== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0102_01D5A9C7.1B9C6CC0" Content-Language: en-gb This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01D5A9C7.1B9C6CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi =EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BDlie, =EF=BF=BD The concept of macrolanguages was introduced as a means to harmonize = ISO639 part 1 and 2 with the new part 3 in the early 2000s, as in some = cases in the Ethnologue (basis for ISO 639-3) there were several entries = where ISO 639 1/2 only had one, as in the case of zh. SIL International, = the editor of Ethnologue and maintenance agency for part 3, does not = intend to introduce further macrolanguage-codes, but your examples with = Tibetan and Khmer may be good cases for rethinking that policy. If = there are indeed orally mutually unintelligible languages whose written = texts are virtually undistinguishable, that would exactly be a good case = for introducing a new macrolanguage, as you suggest. I would submit such = a request, well substantiated. Gary and Melinda are in CC; they would be = the people who would oversee the decision process. Perhaps they have an = opinion right away. =EF=BF=BD Below I copy the section in the upcoming revised ISO 639-4 that deals = with macrolanguages. It is not yet official, but it shows how we have = discussed this issue. =EF=BF=BD Sebastian =EF=BF=BD Macrolanguages Parts 1 and 2 of ISO 639 include language identifiers that correspond in = a one-to-many manner to language identifiers for individual language = varieties in Part 3 of ISO 639. For instance, Part 3 of ISO 639 contains 2 language identifiers = designated as individual language identifiers for distinct language = varieties of Azerbaijani which have separate literatures (North = Azerbaijani [azj] and South Azerbaijani [azb]), while Parts 1 and 2 each = contain only one language identifier for Azerbaijani, [az] and [aze]. = The single language identifiers for Azerbaijani in Parts 1 and 2 of ISO = 639 correspond to the multiple language identifiers for distinct = language varieties of Azerbaijani in Part 3 of ISO 639. Under a language coding perspective, a somehow similar =E2=80=93 however = different from a cultural and socio-political perspective =E2=80=93 = situation exists for: * Multiple closely related Chinese languages which share a common = written form. * The individual languages Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, etc. where in = some contexts it is necessary to make a distinction, while there are = other contexts in which these distinctions are not discernible in = =E2=80=98Serbo-Croatian=E2=80=99 language resources that are in use. Where situations like the above exist, a language identifier in parts 1 = and 2 for the single, common language identity is considered as a = macrolanguage identifier. Macrolanguages are distinguished from language groups in that the = individual languages that correspond to a macrolanguage must be very = closely related, and there must be some application for which only a = single language identity is recognized. =EF=BF=BD --=20 Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica =EF=BF=BD =E2=96=AA =EF=BF=BDAv. = Perimetral, 1901 Terra Firme, CEP: 66077-530 =EF=BF=BD =E2=96=AA =EF=BF=BD Bel=C3=A9m do = Par=C3=A1 =E2=80=93 PA =EF=BF=BD=E2=96=AA =EF=BF=BD Brazil [email protected] =EF=BF=BD=E2=96=AA =EF=BF=BD +55 (91) 3217 6024 =EF=BF=BD -----Original Message----- From: Ietf-languages <[email protected]> On Behalf Of = =C3=89lie Roux Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2019 5:03 AM To: IETF Languages Discussion <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Ietf-languages] Forms for subtag kmpre20c =EF=BF=BD > Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? On the surface, I couldn't = disagree more, but I assume I'm missing something. =EF=BF=BD I think it comes from a few different angles: =EF=BF=BD 1. my experience with databases in the field that I'm working in = (Buddhist studies) is that they use zh for Buddhist texts in Chinese = (translated between the 4th and 11th c. give or take) and I'm quite = happy to do that too as nobody in the field requires the distinction = between the different flavors of Chinese, so zh perfectly fits the = purpose. =EF=BF=BD 2. my experience with the same databases is that they all use the bo = lang tag for Tibetan. Unfortunately bo is not a macrolanguage, it's = supposed to be the language spoken in some areas today ( = <https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/bod> https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/bod). = This language is very different from most of the literature we have in = our database which is Classical Tibetan, which has its own tag (xct). = Also, I struggle a bit to make sense of the "bo" lang tag as: someone = from Amdo (thus not speaking "bo" but "adx") and someone from Lhasa = (speaking "bo") can't understand each other in speech, but the way they = write is the quasi identical. So how do you tag a blog article? If you = don't know the origin of the article, you can say it's "Literary = Tibetan", which has no tag, but you can't say for sure what "language" = it is. And for short sentences (such as titles like what we have in our = database), there's a great deal of overlap between Modern Literary = Tibetan and Classical Tibetan. And (in our applications) we don't care = about this distinction, we don't want to have to choose. And if we don't = want to chose, the only option is "und", which, to be honest, I find = perfectly ridiculous. So, we're sticking with bo even though it's not = true... But if there was a macrolanguage, we would definitely use it. =EF=BF=BD 3. I suspect the situation with Khmer is actually the same, as well as = probably for Tham, Khom, etc. =EF=BF=BD And I don't know why some umbrella languages exist (such as zh, but also = inc or pra that I find useful), and why others don't... =EF=BF=BD Anyways, this is none of IETF's concern, I should bring that to SIL. =EF=BF=BD Best, -- Elie =EF=BF=BD _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01D5A9C7.1B9C6CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Wingdings; panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:#0563C1; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:#954F72; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText {mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Plain Text Char"; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} span.PlainTextChar {mso-style-name:"Plain Text Char"; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Plain Text"; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} ..MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:1499999620; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-1778777632 -875379750 67567619 67567621 67567617 = 67567619 67567621 67567617 67567619 67567621;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:=EF=80=AD; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l0:level2 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";} @list l0:level3 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:=EF=82=A7; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level4 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:=EF=82=B7; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l0:level5 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";} @list l0:level6 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:=EF=82=A7; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level7 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:=EF=82=B7; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l0:level8 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";} @list l0:level9 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:=EF=82=A7; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} ol {margin-bottom:0cm;} ul {margin-bottom:0cm;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB = link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p = class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi =C3=89lie,<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>The = concept of macrolanguages was introduced as a means to harmonize ISO639 = part 1 and 2 with the new part 3 in the early 2000s, as in some cases in = the Ethnologue (basis for ISO 639-3) there were several entries where = ISO 639 1/2 only had one, as in the case of <b><i>zh</i></b>. SIL = International, the editor of Ethnologue and maintenance agency for part = 3, does not intend to introduce further macrolanguage-codes, but your = examples with Tibetan and Khmer may be good cases for rethinking that = policy. =C2=A0If there are indeed orally mutually unintelligible = languages whose written texts are virtually undistinguishable, that = would exactly be a good case for introducing a new macrolanguage, as you = suggest. I would submit such a request, well substantiated. Gary and = Melinda are in CC; they would be the people who would oversee the = decision process. =C2=A0Perhaps they have an opinion right = away.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText>Below I copy the section in the upcoming revised = ISO 639-4 that deals with macrolanguages. =C2=A0It is not yet official, = but it shows how we have discussed this issue.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span = lang=3DPT-BR>Sebastian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DPT-BR><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'mso-element:para-border-div;border:solid windowtext = 1.0pt;padding:1.0pt 4.0pt 1.0pt 4.0pt'><p class=3DMsoPlainText = style=3D'border:none;padding:0cm'><a = name=3D"_Toc25424034"><b>Macrolanguages</b></a><b><o:p></o:p></b></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'border:none;padding:0cm'><span = lang=3DEN-US>Parts 1 and 2 of ISO 639 include language identifiers that = correspond in a one-to-many manner to language identifiers for = individual language varieties in Part 3 of ISO = 639.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText = style=3D'border:none;padding:0cm'>For instance, Part 3 of ISO 639 = contains 2 language identifiers designated as individual language = identifiers for distinct language varieties of Azerbaijani which have = separate literatures (North Azerbaijani [azj] and South Azerbaijani = [azb]), while Parts 1 and 2 each contain only one language identifier = for Azerbaijani, [az] and [aze]. The single language identifiers for = Azerbaijani in Parts 1 and 2 of ISO 639 correspond to the multiple = language identifiers for distinct language varieties of Azerbaijani in = Part 3 of ISO 639.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText = style=3D'border:none;padding:0cm'>Under a language coding perspective, a = somehow similar =E2=80=93 however different from a cultural and = socio-political perspective =E2=80=93 situation exists = for:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div = style=3D'mso-element:para-border-div;border:solid windowtext = 1.0pt;padding:1.0pt 4.0pt 1.0pt = 4.0pt;margin-left:18.0pt;margin-right:0cm'><ul style=3D'margin-top:0cm' = type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoPlainText = style=3D'margin-left:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo1;border:none;padding:0cm'>Multiple closely related Chinese languages = which share a common written form.<o:p></o:p></li><li = class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo1;border:none;padding:0cm'>The individual languages Bosnian, = Croatian, Serbian, etc. where in some contexts it is necessary to make a = distinction, while there are other contexts in which these distinctions = are not discernible in =E2=80=98Serbo-Croatian=E2=80=99 language = resources that are in use.<o:p></o:p></li></ul></div><div = style=3D'mso-element:para-border-div;border:solid windowtext = 1.0pt;padding:1.0pt 4.0pt 1.0pt 4.0pt'><p class=3DMsoPlainText = style=3D'border:none;padding:0cm'>Where situations like the above exist, = a language identifier in parts 1 and 2 for the single, common language = identity is considered as a <i>macrolanguage = identifier</i>.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText = style=3D'border:none;padding:0cm'>Macrolanguages are distinguished from = language groups in that the individual languages that correspond to a = macrolanguage must be very closely related, and there must be some = application for which only a single language identity is = recognized.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span = lang=3DPT-BR>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span = lang=3DPT-BR>Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica =E2=96=AA = Av. Perimetral, 1901<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DPT-BR>Terra Firme, CEP: = 66077-530 =E2=96=AA Bel=C3=A9m do Par=C3=A1 =E2=80=93 PA = =E2=96=AA Brazil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText>[email protected] =E2=96=AA +55 (91) 3217 = 6024<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>-----Original Message-----<br>From: = Ietf-languages <[email protected]> On Behalf Of = =C3=89lie Roux<br>Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2019 5:03 AM<br>To: IETF = Languages Discussion <[email protected]><br>Subject: Re: = [Ietf-languages] Forms for subtag kmpre20c</span></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> = Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? On the surface, I couldn't = disagree more, but I assume I'm missing something.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>I = think it comes from a few different angles:<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>1. my = experience with databases in the field that I'm working in (Buddhist = studies) is that they use zh for Buddhist texts in Chinese (translated = between the 4th and 11th c. give or take) and I'm quite happy to do that = too as nobody in the field requires the distinction between the = different flavors of Chinese, so zh perfectly fits the = purpose.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText>2. my experience with the same databases is that = they all use the bo lang tag for Tibetan. Unfortunately bo is not a = macrolanguage, it's supposed to be the language spoken in some areas = today (<a href=3D"https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/bod"><span = style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://iso639-3.sil.org/= code/bod</span></a>). This language is very different from most of the = literature we have in our database which is Classical Tibetan, which has = its own tag (xct). Also, I struggle a bit to make sense of the = "bo" lang tag as: someone from Amdo (thus not speaking = "bo" but "adx") and someone from Lhasa (speaking = "bo") can't understand each other in speech, but the way they = write is the quasi identical. So how do you tag a blog article? If you = don't know the origin of the article, you can say it's "Literary = Tibetan", which has no tag, but you can't say for sure what = "language" it is. And for short sentences (such as titles like = what we have in our database), there's a great deal of overlap between = Modern Literary Tibetan and Classical Tibetan. And (in our applications) = we don't care about this distinction, we don't want to have to choose. = And if we don't want to chose, the only option is "und", = which, to be honest, I find perfectly ridiculous. So, we're sticking = with bo even though it's not true...<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText>But if there was a macrolanguage, we would = definitely use it.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>3. I = suspect the situation with Khmer is actually the same, as well as = probably for Tham, Khom, etc.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>And I = don't know why some umbrella languages exist (such as zh, but also inc = or pra that I find useful), and why others don't...<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText>Anyways, this is none of IETF's concern, I should = bring that to SIL.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText>Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText>--<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText>Elie<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoPlainText>_______________________________________________<o:p>= </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Ietf-languages mailing = list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span = style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>[email protected]</= span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><a = href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages"><span = style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/ietf-languages</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01D5A9C7.1B9C6CC0-- --===============6806243878094549652== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages --===============6806243878094549652==--