[manet] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eastla ke-manet-babel-wi-fi-00.txt
Donald Eastlake <[email protected]> Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:34:10 -0400
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--===============8645105456544228460== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002d6cd60656d2ce3a" --0000000000002d6cd60656d2ce3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Fred, IBSS provides a point-to-point link between pairs of participating Stations. Of course you can build multi-hop forwarding/routing on top of IBSS just like you can on top of point-to-point bluetooth or Ethernet copper or coax or fiber or most other kinds of link protocols. I think a better answer than you got from AI would have been: "No, IBSS cannot be used to provide multi-hop forwarding without additional mechanism= s on top of IBSS much of which could just as easily be put on top of other point-to-point link protocols." And then possibly continued with a discussion of such mechanisms. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA [email protected] On Fri, Jul 17, 2026 at 10:36=E2=80=AFAM Templin (US), Fred L < [email protected]> wrote: > Hi Donald, your statement about IBSS mode being single-hop-only is correc= t > at L2 but It can be made to do multi-hop at L3 by running IP address base= d > routing protocols such as the MANET family this group works with. I have > been doing that since the early 2000=E2=80=99s with TBRPF: > > > > https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1036114 > > > > I know people on this list have cautioned about AI, but you all are just > going to have to get over your misgivings and jump forward into the 21st > century. For example, here is what AI says when I ask it =E2=80=9CCan IEE= E 802.11 > in IBSS mode be used for multi-hop forwarding?=E2=80=9D: > > > > --- > > Short answer: Yes =E2=80=94 but not natively at the 802.11 MAC level. IBS= S > (ad=E2=80=91hoc) mode provides a single-hop wireless fabric; to get multi= =E2=80=91hop > forwarding you must run an additional forwarding/routing layer (either L2 > or L3) on top of IBSS. In practice that is done with ad=E2=80=91hoc routi= ng daemons > or by using 802.11s (mesh). > > Details and options > > - What IBSS provides: > - IBSS (802.11 ad=E2=80=91hoc) lets stations communicate peer=E2=80= =91to=E2=80=91peer > without an AP, within radio range. > - The 802.11 MAC itself is single=E2=80=91hop: a frame is transmitt= ed by a > station and received only by stations within its radio range. > - How multi=E2=80=91hop is achieved: > - L3 routing: run an IP routing protocol (AODV, OLSR, BATMAN, > Babel, etc.) on top of IBSS. Each node forwards IP packets at the n= etwork > layer; IBSS provides the link layer connectivity between neighbors. > - L2 forwarding/bridging: use a layer=E2=80=912 mesh/bridge mechani= sm > (e.g., batman-adv, or 802.11s) so frames can be forwarded at L2 acr= oss > multiple hops. > - 802.11s: the standard mesh mode provides a MAC/mesh path > selection layer specifically designed for multi=E2=80=91hop Wi=E2= =80=91Fi. If supported by > drivers/firmware, it=E2=80=99s generally preferable to IBSS+L3 rout= ing. > - Practical considerations and caveats: > - Native IBSS has no built=E2=80=91in multi=E2=80=91hop forwarding,= so you must add > routing/forwarding software. > - Performance degrades with hops: throughput and latency worsen due > to shared medium and repeated retransmissions. > - Hidden-node, power=E2=80=91save and beacon synchronization issues= can be > worse in ad=E2=80=91hoc deployments. > - Broadcast/flooding (ARP, discovery) can be expensive=E2=80=94cons= ider > using efficient routing that reduces broadcast storms. > - Driver/firmware support varies; some NICs/firmware have poor IBSS > behaviour or do not support 802.11s. > - Recommendations: > - If you want a standard MAC=E2=80=91level mesh: use 802.11s if you= r > hardware and OS support it. > - If constrained to IBSS: run a proven mesh/routing stack such > as batman-adv (L2) or olsrd/babel/aodv (L3). > - For experiments or small deployments, IBSS + OLSR/AODV is common; > for production, prefer 802.11s or commercial mesh solutions. > > --- > > > > Does this mean that we should trust everything AI tells us? Not at all = =E2=80=93 > AI results always need to be taken with a grain of salt and verified for > accuracy. But to suggest that we should not consult AI in this day and ag= e > is old-school thinking that I think is becoming obsolete in the 21st > century. > > > > Thank you - Fred > > > > > > *From:* Donald Eastlake <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2026 6:04 PM > *To:* manet <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [manet] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for > draft-eastlake-manet-babel-wi-fi-00.txt > > > > See below at <DE> > > > > <DE> Hi, > > > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2026 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Templin (US), Fred L < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Donald, asking AI: =E2=80=9CHow does IEEE802.11 IBSS mode differ from > IEEE802.11 mesh?=E2=80=9D produces illuminating results. Back when I was = doing > multi-hop routing with TBRPF all we had to work with was IBSS mode, as IE= EE > 802.11s did not exist yet. > > > > <DE> I don't know what AIs say, but IBSS (Independent Basic Service Set) > mode is a simple one-hop complete mesh. Every Station needs to be able to > transmit to and receive from every other Station in the IBSS. The origina= l > target scenario was a set of people sitting around a conference table in > the absence of any Access Points (APs) that wanted to communicate with ea= ch > other to share files or whatever. But, in my experience, IBSS is mostly > used by personal computers that want to tether to a cell phone to access > their data over cellular. > > > > <DE> 802.11 standard mesh (MBSS) is quite different with a multi-hop > forwarding model inside the mesh. It is my understanding that most 802.11 > "mesh" products are not conformant to the 802.11 standard although there > are implementations and an early version of the standard was incorporated > into the One Laptop Per Child project. Being a mesh Station and being an = AP > are orthogonal and a Station can be both. > > > > I can picture how multiple (heterogeneous) MANET interfaces works with > IBSS mode, but I am less certain about multiple interfaces and IEEE802.11= s. > > > > <DE> I don't want to get too deep into the 802.11 logical architecture bu= t > there are a bunch of complexities including mesh gateways, portals, etc. > But in any case, the idea is to use Babel inside the existing 802.11 mesh > standard so the way a mesh Station interconnects with things that are not > part of the mesh would not change. > > > > Thank you - Fred > > > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2026 at 12:54=E2=80=AFPM Juliusz Chroboczek <[email protected]>= wrote: > > >> Is a similar profile possible for other MANET routing protocols over > > >> Wi-Fi mesh =E2=80=93 for example, OLSRv2? Or is there something specia= l about > > >> Babel that makes it better suited for Wi-Fi mesh? > > > > In the original 802.11s, there were two routing protocols: HWMP, which wa= s > > MTI, and RA-OLSR (a variant of OLSRv1), which was optional. RA-OLSR > > failed in the market, I'm not sure if it is still in the spec (I haven't > > read the recent revisions of 802.11s). > > > > <DE> There were a number of people in the 802.11s Task Group pushing > RA-OLSR but there is always tremendous pressure to simplify standards in > 802. For various reasons, a number of them dropped out. Technical votes i= n > 802 require a 3/4 supermajority and there had been 25+% supporting RA-OLS= R > which kept it in the standards. But when several of its proponents stoppe= d > participating, very quickly there was a 3/4 in favor of stripping RA-OLSR > out of the draft and it was gone. > > > > <DE> As usual in 802, the 802.11 WG periodically does roll-ups to include > amendments into the main standard. So there is no more "802.11s" and the > combined IEEE Std 802.11 still has only the HWMP routing protocol for mes= h. > (The most recent version is IEEE Std 802.11-2024 which is 5,954 pages lon= g.) > > > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2026 at 1:12=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Dearlove < > [email protected]> wrote: > > The biggest potential option that basing on OLSRv2 rather than OLSR(v1) > would be link metrics. > > > > (You=E2=80=99d be building a new way to encode data I presume so the 5444= format > wouldn=E2=80=99t apply. In an ideal world the authors would have liked to= separate > the structure of OLSRv2 from its 5444 encoding, but having already spun o= ff > NHDP that was just a step too far.) > > > > <DE> Well, you want to envelope the routing protocol messages within > appropriate 802.11 frame constructs. But you might be able to do that wit= h > 5444 format messages. > > > > > > <DE> Thanks, > > Donald > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd > > 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA > > [email protected] > --0000000000002d6cd60656d2ce3a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Fred,</div><div><br></div><div>IB= SS provides a point-to-point link between pairs of participating Stations. = Of course you can build multi-hop forwarding/routing on top of IBSS just li= ke you can on top of point-to-point bluetooth or Ethernet copper or coax or= fiber or most other kinds of link protocols.</div><div><span style=3D"back= ground-color:transparent"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"background-c= olor:transparent">I think a=C2=A0</span>better<span style=3D"background-col= or:transparent"> answer than you got from AI would have been: "No, IBS= S cannot be used to provide multi-hop forwarding without additional </span>= mechanisms<span style=3D"background-color:transparent"> on top of IBSS much= of which could just as easily be put on top of other point-to-point link p= rotocols." And then possibly continued with a discussion of </span>suc= h mechanisms<span style=3D"background-color:transparent">.</span></div><div= ><br></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"= >Thanks,<br>Donald<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd<= br>=C2=A02386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA<br>=C2=A0<a href=3D"ma= ilto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a></div></div></= div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir= =3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 17, 2026 at 10:36=E2=80=AFAM Temp= lin (US), Fred L <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Fred.L.Te= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa= dding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"msg-1470238140358947024"> <div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"> <div class=3D"m_-1470238140358947024WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Hi Donald, your state= ment about IBSS mode being single-hop-only is correct at L2 but It can be m= ade to do multi-hop at L3 by running IP address based routing protocols suc= h as the MANET family this group works with. I have been doing that since the early 2000=E2=80=99s with TBRPF:<u>= </u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><a href=3D"https://ie= eexplore.ieee.org/document/1036114" target=3D"_blank">https://ieeexplore.ie= ee.org/document/1036114</a><u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">I know people on this= list have cautioned about AI, but you all are just going to have to get ov= er your misgivings and jump forward into the 21<sup>st</sup> century. For e= xample, here is what AI says when I ask it =E2=80=9CCan IEEE 802.11 in IBSS mode be used for multi-hop forwa= rding?=E2=80=9D:<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">---<u></u><u></u></sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Short answer: Yes =E2= =80=94 but not natively at the 802.11 MAC level. IBSS (ad=E2=80=91hoc) mode= provides a single-hop wireless fabric; to get multi=E2=80=91hop forwarding= you must run an additional forwarding/routing layer (either L2 or L3) on top of IBSS. In practice that is done with ad=E2=80=91hoc rou= ting daemons or by using 802.11s (mesh).<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Details and options<u= ></u><u></u></span></p> <ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">What IBSS provides:<= u></u><u></u></span></li><ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"circle"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">IBSS (802.11 ad=E2= =80=91hoc) lets stations communicate peer=E2=80=91to=E2=80=91peer without a= n AP, within radio range.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">= <span style=3D"font-size:11pt">The 802.11 MAC itself is single=E2=80=91hop:= a frame is transmitted by a station and received only by stations within i= ts radio range.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul> <li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">How multi=E2=80=91ho= p is achieved:<u></u><u></u></span></li><ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type= =3D"circle"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">L3 routing: run an I= P routing protocol (AODV, OLSR, BATMAN, Babel, etc.) on top of IBSS. Each n= ode forwards IP packets at the network layer; IBSS provides the link layer = connectivity between neighbors.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11pt">L2 forwarding/bridging: use a layer=E2=80=912 mesh= /bridge mechanism (e.g.,=C2=A0batman-adv, or 802.11s) so frames can be forw= arded at L2 across multiple hops.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"Mso= Normal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">802.11s: the standard mesh mode prov= ides a MAC/mesh path selection layer specifically designed for multi=E2=80= =91hop Wi=E2=80=91Fi. If supported by drivers/firmware, it=E2=80=99s genera= lly preferable to IBSS+L3 routing.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul> <li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Practical considerat= ions and caveats:<u></u><u></u></span></li><ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" typ= e=3D"circle"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Native IBSS has no b= uilt=E2=80=91in multi=E2=80=91hop forwarding, so you must add routing/forwa= rding software.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl= e=3D"font-size:11pt">Performance degrades with hops: throughput and latency= worsen due to shared medium and repeated retransmissions.<u></u><u></u></s= pan></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Hidden-node= , power=E2=80=91save and beacon synchronization issues can be worse in ad= =E2=80=91hoc deployments.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">= <span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Broadcast/flooding (ARP, discovery) can be e= xpensive=E2=80=94consider using efficient routing that reduces broadcast st= orms.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-= size:11pt">Driver/firmware support varies; some NICs/firmware have poor IBS= S behaviour or do not support 802.11s.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul> <li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Recommendations:<u><= /u><u></u></span></li><ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"circle"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">If you want a standa= rd MAC=E2=80=91level mesh: use 802.11s if your hardware and OS support it.<= u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1= 1pt">If constrained to IBSS: run a proven mesh/routing stack such as=C2=A0b= atman-adv=C2=A0(L2) or=C2=A0olsrd/babel/aodv=C2=A0(L3).<u></u><u></u></span= ></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">For experiment= s or small deployments, IBSS + OLSR/AODV is common; for production, prefer = 802.11s or commercial mesh solutions.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul> </ul> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">---<u></u><u></u></sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Does this mean that w= e should trust everything AI tells us? Not at all =E2=80=93 AI results alwa= ys need to be taken with a grain of salt and verified for accuracy. But to = suggest that we should not consult AI in this day and age is old-school thinking that I think is becoming obsolete in th= e 21<sup>st</sup> century.<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Thank you - Fred<u></= u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /span></p> <div style=3D"border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;border-style:none non= e none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor blue;paddi= ng:0in 0in 0in 4pt"> <div> <div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b= order-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in"= > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri= ,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali= bri,sans-serif"> Donald Eastlake <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" ta= rget=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> <br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 16, 2026 6:04 PM<br> <b>To:</b> manet <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">ma= [email protected]</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> [manet] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eastlak= e-manet-babel-wi-fi-00.txt<u></u><u></u></span></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">See below at <DE><u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><DE> Hi,<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 14, 2026 at 10:46<span style=3D"font-fam= ily:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=AF</span>AM Templin (US), Fred L <<a href= =3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">Fred.L.Templin@boei= ng.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Donald, asking AI: =E2=80=9CHow does IEEE802.11 I= BSS mode differ from IEEE802.11 mesh?=E2=80=9D produces illuminating result= s. Back when I was doing multi-hop routing with TBRPF all we had to work wi= th was IBSS mode, as IEEE 802.11s did not exist yet.<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><DE> I don't know what AIs say, but IBSS (= Independent Basic Service Set) mode is a simple one-hop complete mesh. Ever= y Station needs to be able to transmit to and receive from every other Stat= ion in the IBSS. The original target scenario was a set of people sitting around a conference table in the absence of an= y Access Points (APs) that wanted to communicate with each other to share f= iles or whatever. But, in my experience, IBSS is mostly used by personal co= mputers that want to tether to a cell phone to access their data over cellular.<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><DE> 802.11 standard mesh (MBSS) is quite diff= erent with a multi-hop forwarding model inside the mesh. It is my understan= ding that most 802.11 "mesh" products are not conformant to the 8= 02.11 standard although there are implementations and an early version of the standard was incorporated into the One Laptop = Per Child project. Being a mesh Station and being an AP are orthogonal and = a Station can be both.<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I can picture how multiple (heterogeneous) MANET int= erfaces works with IBSS mode, but I am less certain about multiple interfac= es and IEEE802.11s.<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><DE> I don't want to get too deep into the= 802.11 logical architecture but there are a bunch of complexities includin= g mesh gateways, portals, etc. But in any case, the idea is to use Babel in= side the existing 802.11 mesh standard so the way a mesh Station interconnects with things that are not part of the mesh= would not change.<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you - Fred<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 14, 2026 at 12:54<span style=3D"font-fam= ily:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=AF</span>PM Juliusz Chroboczek <<a href=3D"= mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<u></u><u><= /u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">>> Is a similar profile possible for other MAN= ET routing protocols over<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">>> Wi-Fi mesh =E2=80=93 for example, OLSRv2? O= r is there something special about<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">>> Babel that makes it better suited for Wi-Fi= mesh?<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the original 802.11s, there were two routing prot= ocols: HWMP, which was<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">MTI, and RA-OLSR (a variant of OLSRv1), which was op= tional.=C2=A0 RA-OLSR<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">failed in the market, I'm not sure if it is stil= l in the spec (I haven't<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">read the recent revisions of 802.11s).<u></u><u></u>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><DE> There were a number of people in the 802.= 11s Task Group pushing RA-OLSR but there is always tremendous pressure to s= implify standards in 802. For various reasons, a number of them dropped out= . Technical votes in 802 require=C2=A0a 3/4 supermajority and there had been 25+% supporting RA-OLSR which kept it in the standards.= But when several of its proponents stopped participating, very quickly the= re was a 3/4 in favor of stripping RA-OLSR out of the draft and it=C2=A0was= gone.<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><DE> As usual in 802, the 802.11 WG periodical= ly does roll-ups to include amendments into the main standard. So there is = no more "802.11s" and the combined IEEE Std 802.11 still has only= the HWMP routing protocol for mesh. (The most recent version is IEEE Std 802.11-2024 which is 5,954 pages long.)<u></u><u></u><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 14, 2026 at 1:12<span style=3D"font-fami= ly:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=AF</span>PM Christopher Dearlove <<a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearl= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The biggest potential option that basing on OLSRv2 r= ather than OLSR(v1) would be link metrics.<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">(You=E2=80=99d be building a new way to encode data = I presume so the 5444 format wouldn=E2=80=99t apply. In an ideal world the = authors would have liked to separate the structure of OLSRv2 from its 5444 = encoding, but having already spun off NHDP that was just a step too far.)<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><DE> Well, you want to envelope the routing pr= otocol messages within appropriate 802.11 frame constructs. But you might b= e able to do that with 5444 format messages.<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><DE> Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Donald<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A02386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA<u>= </u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"= _blank">[email protected]</a><u></u><u></u></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div></blockquote></div></div> --0000000000002d6cd60656d2ce3a-- --===============8645105456544228460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KbWFuZXQgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0IC0tIG1hbmV0QGlldGYub3JnClRvIHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlIHNlbmQgYW4gZW1haWwg dG8gbWFuZXQtbGVhdmVAaWV0Zi5vcmcK --===============8645105456544228460==--