Re: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-mboned-deprecate-interdomain-asm-05

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On 22 Dec 2019, Tim Chown responded to Dale Worley 21 Dec 2019 review

| > 4.5.  Preferring SSM applications intradomain
| >
| >   If feasible, it is recommended for applications to use SSM even if
| >   they are initially only meant to be used in intradomain environments
| >   supporting ASM.
| >
| > It seems like the words "If feasible" are reduendant given the meaning
| > of "recommended" (or at least the meaning of "RECOMMENDED").
|
| There was some pushback in earlier discussions on this, ?if feasible? was
added as a
| compromise.  Ultimately, what an operator does in their own domain is up
to them; the main
|  recommendation of this BCP is on the inter-domain use.

Some background to Tim Chown's comment about "pushback in earlier
discussions"
Section 4.4 is on Developing application guidance: SSM, ASM, service
discovery
Section 4.5 is on Preferring SSM applications intradomain

We have intradomain applications with up to hundreds of nodes doing many to
many multicast IP packet exchanges where the nodes can dynamically come and
go.  (Although most networks only contain 20 to 100 nodes, I believe the
largest such network had >250 nodes doing many to many multicast.


SSM is not feasible (and neither is ASM with PIM-SM due to the high
overhead and dynamics as nodes come and go).  So our applications use ASM
with BIDIR-PIM.


We want to ensure that operating system and router developers continue to
support ASM and BIDIR-PIM over the long term for our intradomain
applications. I.e., we do NOT want to deprecate intradomain use of ASM.


Thus, we pushed back against the recommendation in 4.4 to develop new
applications using SSM and in 4.5 to prefer SSM for future intradomain
applications.  In response, the
draft-ietf-mboned-deprecate-interdomain-asm document
was updated to put in the phrase "if feasible" in sections 4.4. and 4.5 so
that SSM is not recommended if not feasible.


Note that we do not object to deprecating interdomain use of ASM.


Jim Stevens

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
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r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">On 22 Dec 2019, Tim Chown resp=
onded to Dale Worley 21 Dec 2019 review</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:small"><span style=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;tex=
t-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-=
space:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(255,255,255)">| &gt; 4.5.=C2=A0 Preferring SSM applications int=
radomain</span><br style=3D"text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transf=
orm:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-wei=
ght:400;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><span sty=
le=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:left;color:rgb(3=
4,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;text-dec=
oration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:normal;font-size-a=
djust:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)=
">| &gt; </span><br style=3D"text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-trans=
form:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Arial,Helvetica=
,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-we=
ight:400;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><span st=
yle=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:left;color:rgb(=
34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;text-de=
coration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:normal;font-size-=
adjust:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,255=
)">
| &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0If feasible, it is recommended for applications to use S=
SM even if</span><br style=3D"text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-tran=
sform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Arial,Helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-w=
eight:400;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:left;color:rgb=
(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;text-d=
ecoration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:normal;font-size=
-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,25=
5)">
| &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0they are initially only meant to be used in intradomain =
environments</span><br style=3D"text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-tr=
ansform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Arial,Helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font=
-weight:400;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><span=
 style=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:left;color:r=
gb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:normal;font-si=
ze-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,=
255)">
| &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0supporting ASM.</span><br style=3D"text-align:left;color=
:rgb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;fo=
nt-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;fo=
nt-variant:normal;font-weight:400;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;whi=
te-space:normal"><span style=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;t=
ext-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;whit=
e-space:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;backgro=
und-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
| &gt; </span><br style=3D"text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transfo=
rm:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weig=
ht:400;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><span styl=
e=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:left;color:rgb(34=
,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;text-deco=
ration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:normal;font-size-ad=
just:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"=
>
| &gt; It seems like the words &quot;If feasible&quot; are reduendant given=
 the meaning</span><br style=3D"text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-tr=
ansform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Arial,Helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font=
-weight:400;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><span=
 style=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:left;color:r=
gb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:normal;font-si=
ze-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,=
255)">
| &gt; of &quot;recommended&quot; (or at least the meaning of &quot;RECOMME=
NDED&quot;).</span><br style=3D"text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-tr=
ansform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Arial,Helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font=
-weight:400;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><span=
 style=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:left;color:r=
gb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:normal;font-si=
ze-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,=
255)">
</span>| <br style=3D"text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transform:no=
ne;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:40=
0;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><span style=3D"=
font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,3=
4);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;text-decoratio=
n:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:normal;font-size-adjust:=
none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
| There was some pushback in earlier discussions on this, ?if feasible? was=
 added as a</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:sma=
ll"><span style=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:lef=
t;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:norma=
l;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255)">| compromise.=C2=A0 Ultimately, what an operator does in the=
ir own domain is up to them; the main</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-size:small"><span style=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica=
,sans-serif;text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-in=
dent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;displa=
y:inline;white-space:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal;float=
:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">|=C2=A0=C2=A0recommendation of thi=
s BCP is on the inter-domain use.</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-size:small"><br style=3D"text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);=
text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Arial=
,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-variant:norm=
al;font-weight:400;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal=
"><span style=3D"font:small/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:left;=
color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:normal;=
font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255)"></span><b></b><i></i><u></u><sub></sub><sup></sup><strike></st=
rike>Some background to Tim Chown&#39;s comment about &quot;pushback in ear=
lier discussions&quot;<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
size:small">Section 4.4 is on=C2=A0Developing application guidance: SSM, AS=
M, service discovery</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:s=
mall">Section 4.5 is on=C2=A0Preferring SSM applications intradomain</div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"line-height:normal;margin-bottom:0pt"><b></b><i></i><u></u><sub><=
/sub><sup></sup><strike></strike><b></b><i></i><u></u><sub></sub><sup></sup=
><strike></strike><b></b><i></i><u></u><sub></sub><sup></sup><strike></stri=
ke><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">We have intradom=
ain applications with up to hundreds of nodes doing many to many multicast =
IP packet exchanges where the nodes can dynamically come and go.=C2=A0 (Alt=
hough most networks only contain 20 to 100 nodes, I believe the largest suc=
h network had &gt;250 nodes doing many to many multicast.</span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:normal;margin-bottom:0pt"><span class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"line-height:normal;margin-bottom:0pt"><span class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-size:small">SSM is not feasible (and neither is ASM=
 with PIM-SM due to the high overhead and dynamics as nodes come and go).=
=C2=A0 So our applications use ASM with BIDIR-PIM. =C2=A0</span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:normal;margin-bottom:0pt"><span class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"line-height:normal;margin-bottom:0pt"><span class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-size:small">We want to ensure that operating system=
 and router developers continue to support ASM and BIDIR-PIM over the long =
term for our intradomain applications. I.e., we do NOT want to deprecate in=
tradomain use of ASM.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height=
:normal;margin-bottom:0pt"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size=
:small"><br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:normal;m=
argin-bottom:0pt"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">T=
hus, we pushed back against the recommendation in 4.4 to develop new applic=
ations using SSM and in 4.5 to prefer SSM for future intradomain applicatio=
ns.=C2=A0 In response, the draft-ietf-mboned-deprecate-interdomain-asm </sp=
an><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">document was upd=
ated to put in the phrase &quot;if feasible&quot; in sections 4.4. and 4.5 =
so that SSM is not recommended if not feasible.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"line-height:normal;margin-bottom:0pt"><span class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"line-height:normal;margin-bottom:0pt"><span class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:small">Note that we do not object to deprecating interdom=
ain use of ASM.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:norma=
l;margin-bottom:0pt"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small=
"><br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:normal;margin-=
bottom:0pt"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Jim Ste=
vens</span><br></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:normal;margi=
n-bottom:0pt"></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:normal;margin=
-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:8pt"><br=
></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div>

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