[openpgp] Re: draft-ietf-openpgp-nist-bp-comp: add Categor y-5/P-384 combinations

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Hi Gergely,

the picture is still not clear to me. You have to be aware that the draft i=
s in an advanced state and that the algorithm combinations currently specif=
ied have already undergone discussions in the working group and seem to be =
the consensus we arrived at. Most importantly, adding new code points is a =
somewhat critical thing since the WG has been quite restrictive regarding t=
he number of new code points they allow. Already in=C2=A0[RFC 9980](https:/=
/www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9980/), we had to cut down the number of code p=
oints, especially for SLH-DSA, where only 3 of the 6 SHAKE-variants have be=
en included. What I =E2=80=93 from my personal point of view =E2=80=93 am t=
rying to say is that if you want to motivate the addition of further code p=
oints, you will need to describe the specific use case that requires them t=
o sufficient detail and with concrete references. Otherwise I don't expect =
that the WG will vote for the addition of further code points.

Best regards,
Falko=20
 =20
On Mon, 2026-07-06 at 17:04 +0200, NGG wrote:

> Hello Falko,
> Thanks for the question.
> I did not mean that any single one of the existing profiles requires both=
 hybrid use and category-5 ML-* alone.
> My point is interoperability across profiles: some environments allow P-3=
84 but not P-521, while other requirements may call for category-5 ML-*. Im=
plementations may need one standardized hybrid option that works across as =
many such environments as possible.
> So the goal is not to satisfy a single profile with one algorithm choice,=
 but to define an optional P-384/category-5 combination that is broadly usa=
ble across multiple profiles and avoids private, non-standard combinations.
> Best regards, =20
> Gergely
>=20
> Falko Strenzke <[[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])> ez=
t =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 2026. j=C3=BAl. 6., H, 16:35):
>=20
> > Hi Gergely,
> >=20
> > On Sat, 2026-06-20 at 22:56 +0200, NGG wrote:
> >=20
> > > Hello OpenPGP WG, =20
> > >  =20
> > > I would like to suggest adding the following optional combinations to=
=C2=A0draft-ietf-openpgp-nist-bp-comp: =20
> > >  =20
> > > * ML-KEM-1024+ECDH-NIST-P-384 =20
> > > * ML-DSA-87+ECDSA-NIST-P-384 =20
> > >  =20
> > > The current draft pairs the category-5 ML-* parameter sets only with=
=C2=A0P-521, while P-384 is paired with category-3. =20
> > >  =20
> > > The motivation is compliance interoperability.Some deployed profiles,=
=C2=A0including CNSA 1.0 and NATO FMN certificate profiles,=C2=A0admit P-38=
4 but not P-521.Separately, other policies or deployment requirements=C2=A0=
may call for the category-5 ML-* parameter sets.
> >=20
> > What requirements of profiles are you exactly referring to? CNSA does n=
ot require multi-algorithm at all, so for this purpose the security level o=
f the traditional component should not matter. In fact it could simply be i=
gnored for the signature at least.
> >=20
> > Falko
> >=20
> > >  =20
> > > These are not necessarily requirements imposed by the same profile, b=
ut=C2=A0software may need to operate across several such environments.
> > > Standardized P-384/category-5 combinations would provide a useful=C2=
=A0intersection. =20
> > >  =20
> > > There is already relevant IETF precedent: =20
> > >  =20
> > > * The TLS ECDHE-MLKEM specification defines SecP384r1MLKEM1024. =20
> > > * The LAMPS composite-signature specification defines id-MLDSA87-ECDS=
A-P384-SHA512. =20
> > >  =20
> > > These combinations could be added alongside the existing P-521 varian=
ts,=C2=A0without changing or replacing them. =20
> > >  =20
> > > Would the WG consider adding them? =20
> > >  =20
> > > Best regards,Gergely Nagy
> > > ```
_______________________________________________
openpgp mailing list -- [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])
To unsubscribe send an email to [[email protected]](mailto:openpgp-lea=
[email protected])
```

> >=20
> > ```
_______________________________________________
> > openpgp mailing list -- [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [[email protected]](mailto:openpgp=
[email protected])


```

>


```
--=20
```
MTG AG =20
Dr. Falko Strenzke

Phone: +49 6151 8000 24 =20
E-Mail: [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) =20
Web: mtg.de

MTG AG - Dolivostr. 11 - 64293 Darmstadt, Germany =20
Commercial register: HRB 8901 =20
Register Court: Amtsgericht Darmstadt =20
Management Board: J=C3=BCrgen Ruf (CEO), Tamer Kemer=C3=B6z =20
Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Dr. Thomas Milde

This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you a=
re not the correct recipient or have received this email in error, =20
please inform the sender immediately and delete this email.Unauthorised cop=
ying or distribution of this email is not permitted.

Data protection information: Privacy policy


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<p>Hi Gergely,</p>
<p>the picture is still not clear to me. You have to be aware that the draf=
t is in an advanced state and that the algorithm combinations currently spe=
cified have already undergone discussions in the working group and seem to =
be the consensus we arrived at. Most importantly, adding new code points is=
 a somewhat critical thing since the WG has been quite restrictive regardin=
g the number of new code points they allow. Already in=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
s://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9980/">RFC 9980</a>, we had to cut down the =
number of code points, especially for SLH-DSA, where only 3 of the 6 SHAKE-=
variants have been included. What I =E2=80=93 from my personal point of vie=
w =E2=80=93 am trying to say is that if you want to motivate the addition o=
f further code points, you will need to describe the specific use case that=
 requires them to sufficient detail and with concrete references. Otherwise=
 I don't expect that the WG will vote for the addition of further code poin=
ts.</p>
<p>Best regards,
Falko</p>
<p>On Mon, 2026-07-06 at 17:04 +0200, NGG wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p>Hello Falko,
Thanks for the question.
I did not mean that any single one of the existing profiles requires both h=
ybrid use and category-5 ML-* alone.
My point is interoperability across profiles: some environments allow P-384=
 but not P-521, while other requirements may call for category-5 ML-*. Impl=
ementations may need one standardized hybrid option that works across as ma=
ny such environments as possible.
So the goal is not to satisfy a single profile with one algorithm choice, b=
ut to define an optional P-384/category-5 combination that is broadly usabl=
e across multiple profiles and avoids private, non-standard combinations.
Best regards,<br />
Gergely</p>
<p>Falko Strenzke &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">falko.strenz=
[email protected]</a>&gt; ezt =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 2026. j=C3=BAl. 6., H, 16:35=
):</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p>Hi Gergely,</p>
<p>On Sat, 2026-06-20 at 22:56 +0200, NGG wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p>Hello OpenPGP WG,</p>
<p>I would like to suggest adding the following optional combinations to=C2=
=A0draft-ietf-openpgp-nist-bp-comp:</p>
<ul>
<li>ML-KEM-1024+ECDH-NIST-P-384</li>
<li>ML-DSA-87+ECDSA-NIST-P-384</li>
</ul>
<p>The current draft pairs the category-5 ML-* parameter sets only with=C2=
=A0P-521, while P-384 is paired with category-3.</p>
<p>The motivation is compliance interoperability.Some deployed profiles,=C2=
=A0including CNSA 1.0 and NATO FMN certificate profiles,=C2=A0admit P-384 b=
ut not P-521.Separately, other policies or deployment requirements=C2=A0may=
 call for the category-5 ML-* parameter sets.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>What requirements of profiles are you exactly referring to? CNSA does no=
t require multi-algorithm at all, so for this purpose the security level of=
 the traditional component should not matter. In fact it could simply be ig=
nored for the signature at least.</p>
<p>Falko</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p>These are not necessarily requirements imposed by the same profile, but=
=C2=A0software may need to operate across several such environments.
Standardized P-384/category-5 combinations would provide a useful=C2=A0inte=
rsection.</p>
<p>There is already relevant IETF precedent:</p>
<ul>
<li>The TLS ECDHE-MLKEM specification defines SecP384r1MLKEM1024.</li>
<li>The LAMPS composite-signature specification defines id-MLDSA87-ECDSA-P3=
84-SHA512.</li>
</ul>
<p>These combinations could be added alongside the existing P-521 variants,=
=C2=A0without changing or replacing them.</p>
<p>Would the WG consider adding them?</p>
<p>Best regards,Gergely Nagy</p>
<pre><code></code></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<hr />
<p>openpgp mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">openpgp@ietf=
.org</a>
To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">o=
[email protected]</a></p>
<pre><code>
&gt; &gt;=20
&gt; &gt; ```
_______________________________________________
&gt; &gt; openpgp mailing list -- [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]=
g)
&gt; &gt; To unsubscribe send an email to [[email protected]](mailto:o=
[email protected])


</code></pre>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
</blockquote>
<pre><code>--=20
</code></pre>
<p>MTG AG<br />
Dr. Falko Strenzke</p>
<p>Phone: +49 6151 8000 24<br />
E-Mail: <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><=
br />
Web: mtg.de</p>
<p>MTG AG - Dolivostr. 11 - 64293 Darmstadt, Germany<br />
Commercial register: HRB 8901<br />
Register Court: Amtsgericht Darmstadt<br />
Management Board: J=C3=BCrgen Ruf (CEO), Tamer Kemer=C3=B6z<br />
Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Dr. Thomas Milde</p>
<p>This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If yo=
u are not the correct recipient or have received this email in error,<br />
please inform the sender immediately and delete this email.Unauthorised cop=
ying or distribution of this email is not permitted.</p>
<p>Data protection information: Privacy policy</p>

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