[OPSAWG]Re: [External] [NMOP] Re: [OPSAREA@IET F126] IRTF/IETF OPS Transfer: Status & Exploring Collaborat ion Opportunities [Commercial - Anyone]
Brad Peters <bradpeters=40nbnco.com.au-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]> Fri, 26 Jun 2026 09:42:23 +0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.opsawg,gmane.ietf.ops |
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| Message-ID | <SY7P282MB5025F75F0DC65BCBE8D122B3F1EB2@SY7P282MB5025.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> |
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dHRhY2htZW50cy4NCg0KQXMgZW1haWxzIG1heSBiZSBhbHRlcmVkLCBPcmFuZ2UgaXMgbm90IGxp YWJsZSBmb3IgbWVzc2FnZXMgdGhhdCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbW9kaWZpZWQsIGNoYW5nZWQgb3IgZmFs c2lmaWVkLg0KDQpUaGFuayB5b3UuDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg== --_000_SY7P282MB5025F75F0DC65BCBE8D122B3F1EB2SY7P282MB5025AUSP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dbig5"> </head> <body> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_MSFontService, -apple-= system, Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(3= 3, 33, 33);"> Thanks Chris i must have missed that one. Sounds like we are working very s= imilar paths. Will be interested to see the hackathon poc. And can agree on= the higher layer semantics decoupled from the very specific machine models= and the abstraction of that detail enabling greater agility than today. </div> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_MSFontService, -apple-= system, Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(3= 3, 33, 33);"> <br> </div> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_MSFontService, -apple-= system, Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(3= 3, 33, 33);"> Looking forward to reading your paper in the morning.</div> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_MSFontService, -apple-= system, Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(3= 3, 33, 33);"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_MSFontService, -apple-system, Robot= o, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" = dir=3D"auto"> Cheers</div> <div dir=3D"auto" id=3D"mail-editor-reference-message-container" class=3D""= ><br> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;"><strong>From:</strong>= Christopher Janz <christopher.janz=3D40huawei.com-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]><br= > <strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, June 26, 2026 6:41:33 pm<br> <strong>To:</strong> Brad Peters <[email protected]>; Thomas.Gr= af-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected] <Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]>; [email protected] <ops= [email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] = <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]><br> <strong>Cc:</strong> [email protected] <mohamed.boucadair@ora= nge.com><br> <strong>Subject:</strong> RE: [External] [NMOP] Re: [OPSAREA@IETF126] IRTF/= IETF OPS Transfer: Status & Exploring Collaboration Opportunities [Comm= ercial - Anyone]<br> </div> <br> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <p><span style=3D"color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"><strong>EXTERNAL SENDER =A1V Be c= autious opening Links and Attachments</strong></span></p> <div> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hi Brad =A1V I d= idn=A1=A6t want to repeat the link from my original message, but the draft = is here: <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-janz-nmrg-ontology-reconc= iliation/" originalsrc=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-janz-nmrg-= ontology-reconciliation/" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;= "> draft-janz-nmrg-ontology-reconciliation</a>. It is new, and will be present= ed in Vienna, with PoC(s). The idea is that cognitive agents: (a) can reaso= n, (b) can talk to each other, and (c) may be, or may become, familiar with= publicly available references. We show that such agents can establish or reconcile working communications= models on their own. My suggestion is that terminological references may u= sefully support interpretation and disambiguation in that process without i= mposing any unnecessary rigidity or limitations, while the availability of the process itself may reduce th= e need to standardize more =A1=A7machine-oriented=A1=A8 model artifacts. Pe= rhaps our most useful =A1=A7human design=A1=A8 work, and the forms of its o= utputs, will shift to a more abstracted key. This seems to be, after all, the general impact of cognitive AI.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p= > <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Best</span><span= style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></s= pan></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif= "> </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif= ">Chris</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif= "> </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif= "> </span></p> <div> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i= n 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-se= rif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif"> Brad Peters <[email protected]= etf.org> <br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 25, 2026 8:53 PM<br> <b>To:</b> Christopher Janz <[email protected]>; Thomas.Gra= [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; nmrg@irt= f.org<br> <b>Cc:</b> [email protected]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [External] [NMOP] Re: [OPSAREA@IETF126] IRTF/IETF OPS T= ransfer: Status & Exploring Collaboration Opportunities [Commercial - A= nyone]</span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> </p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Hi Chris,</= span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </spa= n></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Spot on abo= ut data models versus information models. RFC 3444 still holds true here, t= hey definitely serve completely different purposes depending on what you ar= e trying to achieve.</span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">On the temp= oral side, dealing with fast-streaming state data versus slow-moving graph = data definitely points to a hybrid approach. Have you looked at the Telefon= ica setup in the ETSI Common Information Model? Using a context broker keyed on the same IRI looks like a practical= way to bridge that gap.</span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">I must have= missed the 'Ontology Reconciliation Draft' you mentioned (feel free to pro= vide a link). But parsing your point about agents reconciling with 'no comm= on data model assumed', I read that as absolutely requiring some kind of higher-layer model to act as a shared= anchor. They need that upper layer to establish a common understanding, co= mpletely irrespective of the specific data models sitting underneath.</span= ></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">The real va= lue for standardisation is moving up the abstraction stack to build that co= mmon vocabulary and terminology. We need that shared reference core to prov= ide cross-model linkage without forcing rigidity.</span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">There isn't= a universally accepted standard information model for the network right no= w, meaning there is limited ability to achieve a cognitive approach. The qu= estion may be who creates and then governs this view of network for the foreseeable future.</span></p> </div> <div id=3D"Signature"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif; background: white;"> <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif; background: white;"> <span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: blac= k;">Cheers.</span></p> <p class=3D"elementtoproof" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-fam= ily: PMingLiU, serif; background: white;"> <b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: b= lack;"><br> Brad </span></b><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </spa= n></p> </div> <div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: = 12pt; font-family: PMingLiU, serif;text-align:center"> <hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center"> </div> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:= black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib= ri, sans-serif; color: black;"> Christopher Janz <</span><a href=3D= "mailto:christopher.janz=3D40huawei.com-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]" style=3D"color: blu= e; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-famil= y:"Calibri",sans-serif">christopher.janz=3D40huawei.com-Tr9gZwTxerBeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org= f.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-= serif; color: black;">><br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 25 June 2026 9:55 PM<br> <b>To:</b> Brad Peters <</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= om.au" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"fo= nt-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">bradpeters@nbnc= o.com.au</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sa= ns-serif; color: black;">>; </span><a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; te= xt-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Calibri",sans-serif">Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]</span></a><span style= =3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> <</span><a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]" style=3D"color: blu= e; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-famil= y:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]</span></a><span = style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">= >; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-deco= ration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Cali= bri",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:= 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> <</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text= -decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"= ;Calibri",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-= size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">>; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decora= tion: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibr= i",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11p= t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> <</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-d= ecoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size= : 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">>; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decorati= on: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri&= quot;,sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f= ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> <</span><a href=3D"mail= to:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">nmop= @ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, s= ans-serif; color: black;">>; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decorati= on: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri&= quot;,sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f= ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> <</span><a href=3D"mail= to:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">nmrg= @irtf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, s= ans-serif; color: black;">><br> <b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" styl= e=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.= 0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">[email protected]= om</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-ser= if; color: black;"> <</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color:= blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-f= amily:"Calibri",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></= a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: = black;">><br> <b>Subject:</b> RE: [External] [NMOP] Re: [OPSAREA@IETF126] IRTF/IETF = OPS Transfer: Status & Exploring Collaboration Opportunities [Commercia= l - Anyone]</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> <span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span>= </p> </div> </div> <p><b><span style=3D"color: red;">EXTERNAL SENDER </span></b><b><span style= =3D"font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: red;">=A1V</spa= n><span style=3D"color: red;"> Be cautious opening Links and Attachments</s= pan></b></p> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%"><span style=3D"font-siz= e:11.0pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hi = Brad,</span></p> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%"><span style=3D"font-siz= e:11.0pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I a= gree with you on direction: AI-native autonomy and grounding probabilistic = agents in something factual. I=A1=A6d like to pull a bit more on the modeling thread.</span></p> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%"><span style=3D"font-siz= e:11.0pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dat= a models and knowledge graphs are both concrete commitments to an ontology = =A1X one as schema, the other as schema populated with instances. So, it=A1=A6s really a question of purpose: which represen= tation is best suited to a given objective. A data model commits meaning to= a specific machine form, which buys determinism and verifiability at the c= ost of flexibility =A1X a YANG module is the right artifact where a stable, high-volume interface needs interop (co= nfig, telemetry subscriptions). A graph suits the cases where the questions= are cross-domain and not knowable in advance =A1X correlating inventory, t= opology, alarms, telemetry, anomalies that no single system owns.</span></p> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%"><span style=3D"font-siz= e:11.0pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ano= maly diagnosis I=A1=A6d put on the graph side =A1X mostly correlation and t= raversal over heterogeneous, incompletely-anticipated evidence. But hybrid: link the fast telemetry rather than ingest it. = Which is your temporal-gap design =A1X graph for the slow-moving relationsh= ips, streamed models for the fast state.</span></p> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%"><span style=3D"font-siz= e:11.0pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">But= one might ask: what is the best focal point for standardization going forw= ard? The emerging world is one in which systems are cognitive. In the pre-cognitive world, data models =A1X a stable = basis for system-to-system communication =A1X were the natural targets for = standardization. Cognitive systems may not require that basis <i>a priori</i>. Your YANG=A1=F7OWL compiler is, in effect, the first step = =A1X the =A1=A7lift=A1=A8 portion =A1X of a mediation: making a model=A1=A6= s implicit ontology explicit. The ontology reconciliation draft I mentioned= takes it from there, with two cognitive agents reconciling their ontologies conversationally and generating deterministic translators= , no common data model assumed.</span></p> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%"><span style=3D"font-siz= e:11.0pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">So,= the effective question may be: if agents can converge on semantics and lex= icon by themselves =A1X no initially shared data model, implicit ontologies that may differ in various ways =A1X what is mo= st useful to standardize? My bet is categorical ontologies and their termin= ologies =A1X shared reference cores that ground, de-risk and speed automate= d mediation without imposing rigidity. Tellingly, a hard field problem cuts the same way: identity resolution =A1= X deciding that several systems=A1=A6 identifiers denote the same switch = =A1X is never solved by a rigid, complete data model (that only breeds tran= slation tables and exception logic); it is made tractable by shared reference semantics, which align the attributes you ma= tch on and move resolution from the probabilistic regime toward the determi= nistic one. That speaks to where standardization earns its keep, not to dis= solving entity resolution, which stays implementation. Of course, purpose-optimized data models would remai= n useful references and examples, and KGs are important system tools =A1X b= ut the high-leverage standard artifacts may be moving up the abstraction st= ack, toward shared ontological cores rather than complete ontologies and fixed data structures.</span></p> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%"><span style=3D"font-siz= e:11.0pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Bes= t,</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-se= rif">Chris</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-se= rif"> </span></p> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i= n 0in 0in"> <p><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans= -serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"= Calibri",sans-serif"> Brad Peters <</span><a href=3D"mailto:br= adpeters=3D40nbnco.com.au-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decora= tion: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibr= i",sans-serif">bradpeters=3D40nbnco.com.au-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]</span></a><s= pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">= ><br> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 21, 2026 7:02 PM<br> <b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]" style=3D= "color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;= font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]</span= ></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-= serif">; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-deco= ration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Cali= bri",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:= 11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decora= tion: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibr= i",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0= pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decorati= on: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri&= quot;,sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decorati= on: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri&= quot;,sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br> <b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" styl= e=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.= 0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">[email protected]= om</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri&quo= t;,sans-serif"><br> <b>Subject:</b> [nmrg] Re: [External] [NMOP] Re: [OPSAREA@IETF126] IRT= F/IETF OPS Transfer: Status & Exploring Collaboration Opportunities [Co= mmercial - Anyone]</span></p> </div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-se= rif"> </span></p> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">Hi Thomas,</spa= n><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-ser= if"></span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">Thank you for k= icking off this discussion. The intersection of these working groups aligns= perfectly with the transition the industry is already making: moving from = AI-Enabled Network Operations to AI-Native Autonomous Operations.</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:= "Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">To directly add= ress your questions regarding how AI agents interact with Knowledge Graphs,= Intent, and YANG data, I believe we must first distinguish between automat= ion and autonomy.</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"= Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">Currently, most= industry efforts focus on AI-enabled operations, essentially using AI to a= ssist human operators within legacy functional processes. This places a lay= er of automation on top of existing silos (event/fault, performance, security, accounting). The fatal flaw her= e is that our current event/telemetry pipelines are fundamentally designed = for human consumption. We aggressively filter, aggregate, and discard high-= frequency signals because a human operator cannot process them. By doing so, we actively destroy the granula= r context an AI needs.</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&= quot;Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">Creating a foun= dational model of the network and enriching it with state-based and fast-mo= ving contextual data like streaming telemetry, is critical for providing AI= agents with the information they need. We must shift from design-time hardcoding to run-time enablement. Ag= ents must be able to self-adapt while remaining grounded in factual reality= , complete with the capability to safely test and evaluate insights before = execution.</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri= ",sans-serif"></span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">AI-Native manag= ement is about true autonomy: operating on the network with complete, unifi= ed context to produce an action with a high confidence interval. This is wh= ere the intersection of your mentioned topics becomes critical:</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-famil= y:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 12pt 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-fa= mily: PMingLiU, serif; color: black;"> <span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",serif">Grounding the Agent:&nb= sp;LLMs are inherently probabilistic. To make deterministic, factual decisi= ons, they require a grounding point. Knowledge Graphs (KGs) provide this de= finitive, end-to-end view of the network state.</span><span style=3D"font-s= ize:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li></ul> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family:= PMingLiU, serif; color: black;"> <span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",serif">Run-Time vs. Design-Tim= e: Legacy automation embeds operational knowledge directly into the ap= plication code, creating a massive barrier to change. A well-structured ont= ology allows us to separate the knowledge from the application. Agents can infer and reason over the graph to adapt at run-ti= me rather than waiting for design-time code changes.</span><span style=3D"f= ont-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li></= ul> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family:= PMingLiU, serif; color: black;"> <span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",serif">Bridging the Temporal G= ap: A Knowledge Graph provides the deterministic baseline of slow-movi= ng inventory and topological state. Real-time mechanisms like YANG-Push and= gRPC provide the fast moving state and potentially temporal (TSDB) data that overlays onto that graph. Together, they give th= e agent a complete slice of the operational environment to evaluate and tes= t proposed changes before execution. (Use of a context broker as per Telefo= nicia ETSI Common Information Model).</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt= ; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li></ul> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">This architectu= ral shift is actively gaining traction. Just today, CommsDay (an Australian= Communication focused publication) highlighted a major Australian carrier = rearchitecting their operations around a knowledge plane for the reasons above. I presented on this exact challen= ge at the Broadband Forum in March, specifically addressing the TM Forum au= tonomy ladder and the "Knowledge Limit" that is hit at Level 3 if= we rely on event-driven automation rather than knowledge-driven autonomy.</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; fon= t-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">This links dire= ctly to, and is supported by, the previous IETF Knowledge Graph team papers= :</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sa= ns-serif"></span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family:= PMingLiU, serif; color: black;"> <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mackey-nmop-kg-for-netops= /" originalsrc=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mackey-nmop-kg-for= -netops/" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D= "font-family:"Aptos",serif">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-mackey-nmop-kg-for-netops/</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; fon= t-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li></ul> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family:= PMingLiU, serif; color: black;"> <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tailhardat-nmop-incident-= management-noria/" originalsrc=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ta= ilhardat-nmop-incident-management-noria/" style=3D"color: blue; text-decora= tion: underline;"><span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",serif">https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tailhardat-nmop-incident-management-noria= /</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri"= ;,sans-serif"></span></li></ul> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">Regarding "= ;running code" and practical intersections, I have been developing a s= emantic compiler to translate IETF YANG models into OWL ontologies. The goa= l is to layer additional semantics on top of the base models to support AI agents, integrating RFC9315 Operational Inte= nt with TM Forum ontologies (like the TIO). You can view the current progre= ss of bridging these domains here: </span><a href=3D"https://github.com/bradspau/Network-Ontology-Knowledge-Gr= aphs" originalsrc=3D"https://github.com/bradspau/Network-Ontology-Knowledge= -Graphs" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"= font-family:"Aptos",serif">https://github.com/bradspau/Network-On= tology-Knowledge-Graphs</span></a><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif;= color: black;">.</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"= Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">I believe explo= ring this semantic bridge, how IETF data models map to the ontologies requi= red by systems for autonomous reasoning, would be a highly valuable agenda = item for our joint discussions.</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font= -family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">Ultimately, thi= s technology change demands a rethink of who is conducting the process= es of the past. Are we still curating data for human limitations, creating = dashboards, and relying upon human interpretation? Or are agents and systems now the primary receivers of data, responsible f= or producing tested operational insights and recommendations?</span><span s= tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></spa= n></p> </div> <div style=3D"margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;">Will be interes= ting to see how this unfolds with those that are current implementers/devel= opping. </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Cali= bri",sans-serif"></span></p> </div> <div id=3D"x_Signature"> <p style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family= : Aptos, serif; color: black;">Cheers.</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p= t; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p> <p style=3D"background: white;"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fam= ily: Aptos, serif; color: black;"><br> Brad </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif"></span></p> </div> <p><span style=3D"font-family: Aptos, serif; color: black;"> </span><s= pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">= </span></p> <div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: = 12pt; font-family: PMingLiU, serif;text-align:center"> <hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center"> </div> <div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg"> <p><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; col= or: black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca= libri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Gra= [email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thomas= .Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: C= alibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> <</span><a href=3D"mailto:Thoma= s.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><sp= an style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">T= homas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fami= ly: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">><br> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, 21 June 2026 6:43 PM<br> <b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color:= blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-f= amily:"Calibri",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span sty= le=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">&nb= sp;<</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; te= xt-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Calibri",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"fon= t-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">>; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decora= tion: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibr= i",sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11p= t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> <</span><a hre= f=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underli= ne;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-= serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-famil= y: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">>; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decorati= on: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri&= quot;,sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f= ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> <</span><a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"= >[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib= ri, sans-serif; color: black;">>; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decorati= on: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri&= quot;,sans-serif">[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f= ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> <</span><a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"= >[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib= ri, sans-serif; color: black;">><br> <b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" styl= e=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.= 0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">[email protected]= om</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-ser= if; color: black;"> <</span><a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@ora= nge.com" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"= font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">mohamed.bouca= [email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cali= bri, sans-serif; color: black;">><br> <b>Subject:</b> [External] [NMOP] Re: [OPSAREA@IETF126] IRTF/IETF OPS = Transfer: Status & Exploring Collaboration Opportunities</span><span st= yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span= ></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-se= rif"> </span></p> </div> <p><b><span style=3D"color: red;">EXTERNAL SENDER </span></b><b><span style= =3D"font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: red;">=A1V</spa= n><span style=3D"color: red;"> Be cautious opening Links and Attachments</s= pan></b></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">Dear NMRG, NMOP, OPSAWG and OPSAREA,</s= pan></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">First of all many thanks to Brad, Dan, = Christopher, Alex, Qin and Bernard on their feedback. That=A1=A6s a great s= tart.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">I have been following this thread close= ly </span><a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/nmop/gTPL1eBj5e3GMM= t8qeUWmPP4oMg/" originalsrc=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/nmop/g= TPL1eBj5e3GMMt8qeUWmPP4oMg/" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underli= ne;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS",= sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/m= sg/nmop/gTPL1eBj5e3GMMt8qeUWmPP4oMg/</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10= pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", sans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 6= 5);"> to understand wherever research and industry adoption comes closer together, = wherever there is interest for having a joint discussion and on what partic= ular topic.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">What I observed so far is that we all s= hare that AI in general and also AIOps research and adoption rate has drama= tically increased. So far everybody was very supportive on having a joint discussion. I would be interested to have mor= e feedback, especially also from those who think that it would not bring mu= ch benefit with reasons why.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">From what I observed, having an initial= discussion on the following existing working group document topics and how= they intersect</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family:= PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">Network Digital Twin (</span><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org= /doc/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-network-digital-twin-arch" originalsrc=3D"https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-network-digital-twin-arch" s= tyle=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size:= 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 12= 0, 134);">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-network-dig= ital-twin-arch</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"= ;Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">)</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; fo= nt-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNorma= l" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: PMingLiU, serif; col= or: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">Intent-Based Networking (</span><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-ibn-usecases" originalsrc=3D"https://datatrack= er.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-ibn-usecases" style=3D"color: blue; te= xt-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &qu= ot;Trebuchet MS", sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://datat= racker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-ibn-usecases</span></a><span style= =3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">)</s= pan><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-s= erif"></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: = 12pt; font-family: PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">SIMAP (</span><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft= -ietf-nmop-simap-concept" originalsrc=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/h= tml/draft-ietf-nmop-simap-concept" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: u= nderline;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS&= quot;, sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://datatracker.ietf.org/= doc/html/draft-ietf-nmop-simap-concept</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:1= 0.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">)</span><span style= =3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></= li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-fami= ly: PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">YANG-Push to Message Broker integration (</span><a href=3D"https://d= atatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-nmop-yang-message-broker-integratio= n" originalsrc=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-nmop-yan= g-message-broker-integration" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underl= ine;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS"= , sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/h= tml/draft-ietf-nmop-yang-message-broker-integration</span></a><span style= =3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">)</s= pan><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-s= erif"></span></li></ul> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">and then having a discussions on the fo= llowing raised questions perhaps:</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family:= PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">Which AI agents capabilities are suitable for network management?</s= pan><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-s= erif"></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: = 12pt; font-family: PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">What is the impact of an AI network management process to YANG infor= mation, service, network and data modelling?</span><span style=3D"font-size= :11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li><li class= =3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: PMingLiU= , serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">Is MCP (</span><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Contex= t_Protocol" originalsrc=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Context_Prot= ocol" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"fon= t-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", sans-serif; color: rgb= (70, 120, 134);">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Context_Protocol</span= ></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",= sans-serif">) a suitable protocol between AI agents and IETF network management data sou= rces and system components?</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam= ily:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty= le=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: PMingLiU, serif; color: rg= b(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">How does an AI agent interact with Network Digital Twin, Intent-Base= d Networking, SIMAP, Knowledge Graphs and YANG data in Message Brokers?</sp= an><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-se= rif"></span></li></ul> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">and move from there into some proposed = work addressing these areas. And last but not least maybe wrapping up aroun= d running code. How experiments could facilitate and exchange between both working groups. Alex brought up that ANRW is onc= e a year and perhaps on one or two other occasion the two working group cou= ld continuously actively exchange every year could be an interesting propos= al.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family:= PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">Would that be a potential interesting agenda for everybody?</span><s= pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">= </span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; = font-family: PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">Did I miss anything or shall we focus more on a particular item?</sp= an><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-se= rif"></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 1= 2pt; font-family: PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">Any particular discussion structure you would fancy?</span><span sty= le=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span>= </li></ul> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">I also observed that authors authoring = Knowledge Graph documents have voiced wherever Knowledge Graph could be a t= opic of interest. I would love to see more discussions from other areas on this in particular how this intersects with AIOps and = AI assisted network management topics. I saw also that ontologies have been= mentioned, which I personally besides semantics believe plays an important= role with interacting with AI agents.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">As I am human, and not an AI agent, the= observations and suggestions might be unintentionally bias. So please feed= back and comment.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">Best wishes</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">Thomas</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i= n 0in 0in"> <p><b>From:</b><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif= "> </span>Graf Thomas, SCS-INI-NET-VNC-E2E<br> <b>Sent:</b><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">&= nbsp;</span>Monday, June 1, 2026 7:16 AM<br> <b>To:</b><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">&nb= sp;</span>Nmop <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; t= ext-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">nmop@= ietf.org</span></a>>; <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: und= erline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">[email protected]</span></a>= <br> <b>Cc:</b><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">&nb= sp;</span>Mohamed Boucadair <<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.= com" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"colo= r: rgb(70, 120, 134);">[email protected]</span></a>>; nmrg-chairs <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: bl= ue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">= [email protected]</span></a>>; Nmop-chairs <<a href=3D"mailto:nmop= [email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span = style=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">[email protected]</span></a>><br> <b>Subject:</b><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif= "> </span>FW: [OPSAREA@IETF126] IRTF/IETF OPS Transfer: Status & E= xploring Collaboration Opportunities</p> </div> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",serif"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">Dear NMRG and NMOP,</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">Med approached me wherever I am willing= to facilitate with the support of both working group chairs a discussion b= etween NMRG and NMOP on common interests.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">Looking at the list of current adopted = documents</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/nmrg/documents/" originals= rc=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/nmrg/documents/" style=3D"color: b= lue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fami= ly: "Trebuchet MS", sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https:= //datatracker.ietf.org/group/nmrg/documents/</span></a></p> <p><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nmop/documents/" originalsrc= =3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nmop/documents/" style=3D"color: blue; = text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &= quot;Trebuchet MS", sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://dat= atracker.ietf.org/wg/nmop/documents/</span></a></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">but also looking at AIOps related propo= sals </span><a href=3D"https://github.com/IETF-OPS-AD/misc/blob/main/ai-submissi= ons-ietf125.md" originalsrc=3D"https://github.com/IETF-OPS-AD/misc/blob/mai= n/ai-submissions-ietf125.md" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underli= ne;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS",= sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://github.com/IETF-OPS-AD/misc= /blob/main/ai-submissions-ietf125.md</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10= pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", sans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 6= 5);">, and the related past side meetings in the network management domain, I see= that the lifecycle on research and industry adoption of model and data dri= ven network management becomes accelerated and therefore research and indus= try adoption comes more and more closer together. Looking at the bluesheets of IETF 125, I see that we had = 107 participants for NMRG and 115 for NMOP and 36 participants were attendi= ng both NMRG and NMOP.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">Or in other words, I personally believe= that both working groups have a lot in common but also a also few things w= hich makes them very unique and interesting to facilitate such a discussion.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">I might be wrong and therefore would li= ke to get some feedback from both mailing lists first:</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family:= PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">Would you agree that the lifecycle on research and industry adoption= of model and data driven network management becomes accelerated and theref= ore research and industry adoption comes more and more closer together?</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fami= ly:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li></ul> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family:= PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">Is there an interest at the NMRG and NMOP communities to have an exc= hange on currently adopted and future proposed work to identify synergies a= nd common interests in both working groups and discuss how they could be addressed better?</span><span style=3D"font-size= :11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li></ul> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;margin-top:0in"> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family:= PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-= serif">Do you have a particular topic, set of documents or interest already= in mind?</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri&= quot;,sans-serif"></span></li></ul> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">Best wishes</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);">Thomas</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", s= ans-serif; color: rgb(14, 40, 65);"> </span></p> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i= n 0in 0in"> <p><b>From:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"co= lor: blue; text-decoration: underline;"> <span style=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">[email protected]</spa= n></a><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> <= /span><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: b= lue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"= >[email protected]</span></a>><br> <b>Sent:</b><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">&= nbsp;</span>Monday, May 4, 2026 10:21 AM<br> <b>To:</b><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">&nb= sp;</span>Graf Thomas, SCS-INI-NET-VNC-E2E <<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Gra= [email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span st= yle=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]</span></a>>; <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blue; text-decorati= on: underline;"> <span style=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">[email protected]</span></a>; = Nmop-chairs <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: blu= e; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">n= [email protected]</span></a>><br> <b>Cc:</b><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">&nb= sp;</span>ops-ads <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color: b= lue; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"= >[email protected]</span></a>>; Dirk KUTSCHER <<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@= dkutscher.net" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span sty= le=3D"color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">[email protected]</span></a>><br> <b>Subject:</b><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif= "> </span>[OPSAREA@IETF126] IRTF/IETF OPS Transfer: Status & Explo= ring Collaboration Opportunities</p> </div> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",serif"> </span></p> <table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding= =3D"0" align=3D"left" width=3D"100%" style=3D"width:100.0%"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"background: rgb(207, 74, 12); padding: 5pt 2pt;"></td> <td width=3D"100%" style=3D"width: 100%; background: rgb(255, 248, 229); pa= dding: 5pt 4pt 5pt 12pt;"> <p style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Aptos, serif;= color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Be aware:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10p= t; font-family: Aptos, serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"> This is an ext= ernal email.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times= New Roman",serif"></span></p> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Aptos",serif"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">Hi all,</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">I had several discus= sions recently with many IETF participants about the relationship between s= ome work done in the IRTF and IETF. Specifically, I heard several questions= about the current mode of operation between NMRG and OPS and whether/how activity transfer is happening between the tw= o communities. I do see a value in bringing some of these items from hallwa= y discussion to our formal meetings :-)</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">This can be the oppo= rtunity to explore between collaboration between the communities, and not r= ely only on the leadership level. See, for example, the following excerpt f= orm the NMRG Charter:</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""> =A1=A7T= he IETF Operations and Management Area Directors are members of the NMRG<br= > mailing list and invited to NMRG meetings in order to ensure f= ree flow of<br> information in both directions, and to avoid duplication of wo= rk with the<br> various IETF working groups.=A1=A8</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">There are several WG= /RG pairs that may be considered for collaboration (NMRG/NMOP, MAPRG/IPPM, = etc.) but I think that it would be better to scope the discussion to a spec= ific area. I suggest to focus this time on NMRG/NMOP.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">Thomas kindly accept= ed to drive a discussion on this topic in the IETF#126 OPSAREA Session with= some proposals to bridge both communities. Thomas is also willing to colle= ct feedback and coordinate between the NMRG/NMOP Chairs, in particular.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">@NMOP/@NMRG Chairs: = Would you be interested/willing to work with Thomas to consolidate some dis= cussion material? Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">Thank you.</span></p= > <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">Cheers,</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">Med</span></p> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"">_____________= ___________________________________________________________________________= ____________________</span></pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"">Ce message et= ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou pr= ivilegiees et ne doivent donc</span></pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"">pas etre diff= uses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message p= ar erreur, veuillez le signaler</span></pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"">a l'expediteu= r et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques e= tant susceptibles d'alteration,</span></pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"">Orange declin= e toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Mer= ci.</span></pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New""> </span>= </pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"">This message = and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that= may be protected by law;</span></pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"">they should n= ot be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.</span></pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"">If you have r= eceived this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this messa= ge and its attachments.</span></pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"">As emails may= be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, cha= nged or falsified.</span></pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"">Thank you.</s= pan></pre> </div> <div> <pre style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: MingLiU;"><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New""> </span>= </pre> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> </p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = PMingLiU, serif;"> </p> </div> </div> </div> <br> <p align=3D"Center" style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 6pt; color: r= gb(0, 0, 0); margin: 5pt; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; text-dec= oration: none;"> </p> <br> </div> <br> <p style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:6pt;color:#000000;margin:5pt;font= -style:normal;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none;" align=3D"Center"> </p> </body> </html> --_000_SY7P282MB5025F75F0DC65BCBE8D122B3F1EB2SY7P282MB5025AUSP_-- --===============5963212905857751036== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KT1BTQVdHIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdCAtLSBvcHNhd2dAaWV0Zi5vcmcKVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUgc2VuZCBhbiBlbWFp bCB0byBvcHNhd2ctbGVhdmVAaWV0Zi5vcmcK --===============5963212905857751036==--