[pim] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's Discuss on draft-ietf-pim-p2m p-policy-ping-18: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Ketan Talaulikar <[email protected]>
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| Message-ID | <CAH6gdPxkrR2sL4=e_S_077r=CEUOq1wn6jfkrzrFmvELS5K9oQ@mail.gmail.com> |
Hi Hooman, This looks great. I'll clear my DISCUSS position once the update is posted. Thanks again for your (and your co-authors) patience through these discussions. I hope it has helped improve the document. Thanks, Ketan On Fri, Sep 5, 2025 at 4:00 AM Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) < [email protected]> wrote: > By the way here is the Diff. If you are ok I will upload it > > > > > > > > *From:* Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, September 4, 2025 5:19 PM > *To:* Ketan Talaulikar <[email protected]> > *Cc:* Rishabh Parekh (editor) <[email protected]>; The IESG < > [email protected]>; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Ketan Talaulikar's Discuss on > draft-ietf-pim-p2mp-policy-ping-18: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Hi Ketan > > > > Inline HB> > > > > Thanks > > Hooman > > > > > > *From:* Ketan Talaulikar <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, September 4, 2025 1:15 AM > *To:* Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) <[email protected]> > *Cc:* Rishabh Parekh (editor) <[email protected]>; The IESG < > [email protected]>; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: Ketan Talaulikar's Discuss on > draft-ietf-pim-p2mp-policy-ping-18: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > > > *CAUTION:* This is an external email. Please be very careful when > clicking links or opening attachments. See the URL nok.it/ext for > additional information. > > > > Hi Hooman, > > > > Thanks for your quick response and update. While the updates clear the > first of the two DISCUSS points, there are some further changes required to > clear the second one. > > > > The section 3.1.3 title needs to be updated. Suggestion - > > s/Considerations for Interworking with Unicast SR Domains/Considerations > > for P2MP Trees with Unicast Paths > > > > HB> thanks done. > > > > In the body of the section 3.1.3, it would help to convey that the two > ways to build the P2MP Tree and here can put a reference to > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-pim-sr-p2mp-policy-20.html#appendix-A > and perhaps use the terms adjacent/non-adjacent to describe the two ways to > build the tree. Then convey that with adjacent replication segments, the > operations there are no special considerations for the TTL/Hop Limit > propagation - i.e., Uniform mode has to be used. > > > > HB> ok I added this, that said I did not used Uniform, as uniform is > really for the case of TTL propagation from one label to the other. > > > > However, for the trees built using non-adjacent replication segments, > there are these unicast paths between the replication segments that require > the use of the PIPE mode. > > > > HB> as we agreed for trace route we need to set it to pipe mode, but for > ping it is an implementation choice between uniform mode and pipe mode, > changed the paragraph to be more precise. Thanks > > > > > > As discussed during the meeting yesterday, this clarity on the two ways to > build the trees and the considerations for each of them should be covered > here. > > > > There was also the AI (taken by Rishabh?) to cross-check and confirm if > anything is needed for SRv6 or if it is covered in the pseudocode of the > base SR P2MP policy draft. If the authors want to add these details for > SR-MPLS as well in the base SR P2MP Policy draft instead of in the ping > document, then that is OK as well (ping document can simply reference it). > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 8:27 AM Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Hello > > > > Version 21 of the draft was posted based on today’s conversation. > > > > Thanks > > Hooman > > > > *From:* Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, August 25, 2025 8:13 AM > *To:* Ketan Talaulikar <[email protected]>; Rishabh Parekh (editor) < > [email protected]> > *Cc:* The IESG <[email protected]>; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Ketan Talaulikar's Discuss on > draft-ietf-pim-p2mp-policy-ping-18: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > HI Keta > > > > I think we should have one meeting with @Rishabh Parekh (editor) > <[email protected]> for both (Ping and P2MP Policy) document to conclude. > > > > Thanks > > Hooman > > > > *From:* Ketan Talaulikar <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, August 25, 2025 5:12 AM > *To:* Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) <[email protected]> > *Cc:* The IESG <[email protected]>; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: Ketan Talaulikar's Discuss on > draft-ietf-pim-p2mp-policy-ping-18: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > > > *CAUTION:* This is an external email. Please be very careful when > clicking links or opening attachments. See the URL nok.it/ext for > additional information. > > > > Hi Hooman, > > > > Thanks for posting the updated version. I've revised the ballot to remove > the points that have been closed. > > > > Please check a few points where this document does not seem to be in sync > with the base. If you would like to discuss between the authors of these > two documents and post an update, then please do so. > > > > For the open items, we'll discuss over a call (I will schedule it). > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2025 at 7:22 AM Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Uploaded version 19 > > > > Hooman > > > > *From:* Ketan Talaulikar <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, August 22, 2025 8:01 AM > *To:* Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) <[email protected]> > *Cc:* The IESG <[email protected]>; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: Ketan Talaulikar's Discuss on > draft-ietf-pim-p2mp-policy-ping-18: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > > > *CAUTION:* This is an external email. Please be very careful when > clicking links or opening attachments. See the URL nok.it/ext for > additional information. > > > > Hi Hooman, > > > > Thanks for the continued discussion. Please check inline for follow-ups > with KT2. > > > > At this point, I think it would be great if you (and your co-authors) > could post an update with the changes discussed and agreed so far. This way > we can focus on the outstanding points alone. I am asking the same for the > base SR P2MP Policy document as well - this way can ensure that both are in > sync and consistent. > > > > Note: My responses may be slow next week. > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 4:09 AM Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Ketan > > > > Inline HB2> > > Addressing your major concerns > > > > Thank > > > > *From:* Ketan Talaulikar <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 21, 2025 3:25 AM > *To:* Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) <[email protected]> > *Cc:* The IESG <[email protected]>; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: Ketan Talaulikar's Discuss on > draft-ietf-pim-p2mp-policy-ping-18: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > > > *CAUTION:* This is an external email. Please be very careful when > clicking links or opening attachments. See the URL nok.it/ext for > additional information. > > > > Hi Hooman, > > > > Thanks for your quick response. Please check inline below for > clarifications. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 11:23 PM Hooman Bidgoli (Nokia) < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Ketan > > Thanks for your comments > > Inline > > Thanks > Hooman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ketan Talaulikar via Datatracker <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2025 7:00 AM > To: The IESG <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Ketan Talaulikar's Discuss on draft-ietf-pim-p2mp-policy-ping-18: > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > CAUTION: This is an external email. Please be very careful when clicking > links or opening attachments. See the URL nok.it/ext for additional > information. > > > > Ketan Talaulikar has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-pim-p2mp-policy-ping-18: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/handling-ballot-positions/ > for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pim-p2mp-policy-ping/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks to the authors and the WG for their work on this document. > > I have a few points that I would like to discuss with the authors and the > WG. > > discuss#1 This one should be easy to fix. Since the document is about MPLS > and not SRv6, the correct title for this document would be "Segment Routing > MPLS Point-to-Multipoint (P2MP) Policy Ping" ? > > HB> sorry I am not following, as per draft this doc only addresses the > MPLS encapsulation and not the SRv6. SRv6 will be in future documents. > > > > KT> Can you change the title of the draft from "Segment Routing > Point-to-Multipoint (P2MP) Policy Ping" to "Segment Routing MPLS > Point-to-Multipoint (P2MP) Policy Ping" or better still "LSP Ping for > Segment Routing Point-to-Multipoint (P2MP) Policy" ? > > > > HB2> ok done thanks > > > > > discuss#2 This is related to a point of discussion that I've also raised > on the p2mp policy document. It arises from the lack of clarity on whether > the SR P2MP Policy construct is instantiated on the root node or not. There > is text in section 3.1.1 which seems to leave this critical aspect to > implementations and will result in interoperability problems. The base spec > needs to be very clear on this point and then this document updated to > reflect it. I believe having the construct instantiated in the root will > greatly benefit and simplify OAM operations. And things would then become > very similar to RSVP-TE P2MP trees? > > Quoting some text from section 3.1.1 that is problematic: > > "Only the Root node, where the P2MP SR Policy is programmed, may have > visibility into the leaf nodes." > > "In the case of P2MP SR Policies, the Root of the tree may have full > visibility into the egress nodes if the P2MP SR Policy is PCC-initiated. If > the P2MP SR Policy is PCE-initiated, the Root may or may not have > visibility into the egress nodes, as this depends on the specific > implementation and configuration of the PCE. " > > Further dependencies like the following seem unnecessary: > > "Based on this, a P2MP SR Policy SHOULD follow the recommendations in > Section > 4.3.1 of [RFC6425], depending on the level of visibility the Root has into > the egress nodes. For example, in a PCC-initiated P2MP SR Policy, the Root > can learn egress node identities through Next-Generation MVPN procedures > and BGP, as described in [RFC6514]. In contrast, for a PCE-initiated P2MP > SR Policy, the PCE may not provide the egress node information to the Root, > making this process optional and implementation-specific." > > The lack of clarity hurts interoperability and would affect operations in > a multi-vendor network. I would like to discuss why all of this cannot be > simplified by ensuring that the SR P2MP Policy construct is instantiated on > the root node. > > HB> Thanks but I think this is clearly been explained in the introduction, > as per below paragraph. I clearly says P2MP Policy finest object is a TI > which is the actual P2MP tunnel setup from the "Root" to a set of leaves. > > > > KT> And I see issues with that approach. > > > > > "A P2MP Policy can have one or multiple Candidate Paths (CPs). The CP with > highest preference is designated as the active CP, while all other CPs are > the backup CPs. To enable seamless global optimization a CP may consist of > multiple Tree Instances (TIs), allowing for Make-Before-Break (MBB) > procedures between an active TI and a newly established, optimized TI. A TI > is the actual P2MP tunnel set up from the Root to a set of Leaves via > transit routers. A TI is identified on the Root node by the Root-ID which > is the Root's node IP address, treeID and TI's instance ID." > > discuss#3 My understanding is that the P2MP MPLS trees that are setup by > MLDP or RSVP-TE are hop by hop in nature. While in this case, the packet > can travel multiple hops from one node to the next intermediate node using > that next intermediate node's Prefix SID. > > HB> That is not correct, a P2MP MPLS tree for mLDP, P2MP RSVP-TE or > treeSID is signalled from the root to the a let of leaves. There is no > difference on the datapath between mLDP, P2MP RSVP-TE or treeSID. They all > use MPLS switching to forward a multicast stream from the root to a set of > leaves. > > > > KT> MLDP and RSVP-TE P2MP are signalled hop-by-hop through the network and > as such the state for the P2MP LSP is present in all hops/routers along the > path. While the SR P2MP tree is provisioned on specific (intermediate) > nodes in the network and, therefore, there can be transit routers which do > not have any state for the SR P2MP Tree. Am I correct about this > fundamental difference? > > > > HB2> that is not the case, it is exactly like mLDP and RSVP-TE P2MP. If > there is a replication segment there needs to be a state. That said like > mLDP where 2 mLDP routers can tunnel over unicast RSVP-TE in some segments > of the network, treeSID can also tunnel over a unicast tunnel including SR > Policy, SR-TE etc… but the replication SID needs to be at the bottom of the > stack so when the unicast labels are popped at the destination the > downstream replication router can take action based on the replication SID. > > > > KT2> Perhaps it is better if we discuss this over a call? Next week is > tough for me, but I'll reach out with some suitable slots. > > > > > > > > > In this case, how would operation like traceroute (or even errors in the > case of ping) work when the packet is exposed at a node that is doing > unicast forwarding and has no replication segment context for that specific > P2MP Tree? Now, section 3.1.3 is covering this, but talking about it as > "unicast SR domains" is very misleading since there is only an SR domain > and it is just that the specific P2MP tree context is not required to be > instantiated on a transit node. Does this mean that this mechanism works > only when the P2MP Tree is setup up hop-by-hop? If so, this should be > clearly called out as a caveat upfront and the text in 3.1.3 updated > appropriately. > > HB> the replication SID is at the bottom of the stack, so a transit node > that is capable of treeSID can push adjacency SID or node SID of another > treeSID router that is multi-hop away. As such 2 treeSID capable routers > can be connected via a unicast SR domain, i.e. treeSID tunnel over Unicast > SR tunnel (tunnel over tunnel). Only the treeSID routers will decrement the > treeSID TLL and make appropriate decisions if the TLL has expired. This > tunnel in tunnel concept is nothing new to treeSID and it is the concept of > segment routing which treeSID is part of. > > > > KT> The concept of "unicast SR domain" as you describe above is > misleading. Consider a single SR domain and all routers have SR P2MP > capabilities. While the root, intermediate and leaf nodes have state for a > specific SR P2MP tree, the other transit routers don't have that specific > SR P2MP tree state. There isn't a tunnel per se (it's a stack of labels) > that is going multi-hop across these transit routers, but even if one were > to call it a tunnel then it is going to break the OAM procedures - or at > least they are no longer the same as existing P2MP LSPs. I am OK if this is > called out as a caveat of this proposal and operational guidance provided > to avoid multi-hop such that all replication branches for every replication > segment are just going single hop. > > > > HB2> Sure I can call out this draft does not address the case when a SR > P2MP OAM packet is traversing a unicast portion of the SR domain. i.e. if > the corresponding unicast labels TTLs value expires while the label stack > contains a replication SID is not covered by this draft. > > > > KT2> I have a problem with the characterization of "unicast portion". > While this is an improvement over "Unicast SR domain", it does not address > my point. Can we take this over a call ? > > > > > > > discuss#4 This is an easy one to fix - the following is not a normative > reference, please move to informative. > > [IANA-AF] > "IANA Assigned Port Numbers, " > http://www.iana.org/assignments/address-family-numbers"". > > HB> ok thanks done in version 19. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Please also find below some comments provided inline in the idnits format > of the v18 of this document. On all editorial and minor comments, I will > leave it to the authors discretion. On the major ones, I would appreciate > responses and clarifications. > > Please look for <EoRv18> at the end of this review and if it is not there, > then likely the email has gotten truncated by your client (please refer to > the mailing list in that case). > > 94 1. Introduction > > 96 A P2MP Policy can have one or multiple Candidate Paths (CPs). > The CP > > <minor> Please align terminologies with the SR P2MP policy draft. Term is > SR P2MP Policy, then there is P2MP Tree (Instance), etc. Would be nice to > avoid introducing new terms (e.g., TI) in this document related to any of > the constructs. > > HB> ok thanks, changed to p2mp policy and p2mp tree instance > > 97 with highest preference is designated as the active CP, while > all > 98 other CPs are the backup CPs. To enable seamless global > optimization > > <minor> The CP preference is only the first tiebreaker in the selection of > active CP. Perhaps "One of the CPs (e.g., with highest preference) is > designated ..." > HB> this might be implementation specific. In the SR p2mp policy the > candidate path with highest preference is the active CP. > > > > KT> This isn't implementation specific. The SR P2MP Policy draft says that > it is following RFC9256 (see > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-pim-sr-p2mp-policy-18.html#section-2.3) > - is there a disconnect? This is one of my comments on the SR P2MP Policy > draft - to provide more clarity. > > > > The Root node selects the active Candidate Path based on the tie breaking > rules defined in[RFC9256 > <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-pim-sr-p2mp-policy-18.html#RFC9256> > ]. > > > > HB2> I see, I’ll change the text to point to pim-sr-p2mp-policy for CP > selection, thanks. > > > > KT2> Sure, or you can consider the text that I had suggested - "One of the > CPs (e.g., with highest preference) is designated ..." > > > > > > > 131 [draft-ietf-pim-sr-p2mp-policy] section 2, defines terms and > concepts > 132 specific to SR P2MP Policy including the CP and the TI. > > <minor> I couldn't find TI defined in that document. Please introduce in > the base. > > HB> it is introduced in the introduction > "To enable seamless global optimization a CP may consist of multiple P2MP > Tree Instances (TIs), allowing for Make-Before-Break (MBB) procedures > between an active TI and a newly established, optimized TI." > > > > KT> Please introduce architectural constructs in the architectural spec > (i.e. the SR P2MP Policy draft) where it can be references by all protocol > specs - this LSP Ping is one document, but I would expect it to be used in > PCEP as well as perhaps in the YANG model. > > > > > 142 3. Motivation > > 144 A P2MP Policy and its corresponding Replication Segments are > 145 typically provisioned via a centralized controller or configured > 146 using NETCONF/YANG or CLI. The root and the leaves are > discovered in > > <minor> Perhaps you mean that the network topology that includes the root > and leaves is discovered? > > HB> no, the controller sucks up the topology but the controller initiates > the P2MP policy and its replication segments on the root, transit and leaf > nodes. > > > > KT> What is there to be discovered about these nodes by the controller? > Aren't they provisioned by the controller? My comment is that the choice of > the word "discovered" is odd and unclear. Please clarify. > > > > > 161 This diagnostic process can be initiated from the node > responsible > 162 for establishing the P2MP Policy, ensuring proactive monitoring > and > 163 rapid fault detection. > > <minor> Is use of "rapid" appropriate here? Rapid as in BFD? > > HB> There are cases and implementations, that rapid pings are send for > fault detection. > > > > KT> Let me ask the question if the spec is going to suffer if "rapid" were > to be removed. Or can you find a reference to an existing LSP Ping spec > that talks about "rapid pings"? Implementations are free to make their own > choices but we need to get consensus from MPLS WG if this document is > introducing the concept of "rapid pings". > > > > HB2> I don’t understand this comment sorry. Rapid is implementation, if > you send one ping or one ping a second or 1000 ping a second that is up to > your implementation. > > HB2> that said knowing this implementation I have no issue removing the > word “rapid” > > > > KT2> If you can remove the word rapid, then we please consider this point > closed. If you would like to discuss further, we can take this up as well > over a call? > > > > > > > 295 3.2.1.1. P2MP Policy CP FEC Stack Sub-TLVs > > 297 The P2MP Policy MPLS Candidate Path sub-TLV value field follows > the > > <major> Please consider changing the name of this TLV since it is not > about CP but about the P2MP Tree instance under a CP. Perhaps "SR P2MP > Policy Tree FEC Stack sub-TLV" ... or something similar. I was trying to > not make it too long by including the CP in there, but that would also be > ok. > > HB> It is actually detecting fault on a CP. A CP can have single TI or > multiple TI. Hence why we choose the CP as part of the name. > > > > KT> But as you say above, it is monitoring the TI under the CP and more > importantly the FEC specifies a unique TI and not the CP. i.e. if the CP > has multiple TI then each TI needs a separate LSP Ping session with its > unique FEC. > > > > HB2> This is early allocation in IANA changing the name might be > difficult. That said my next response might satisfy your concern. > > > > KT2> There is no issue with changing the TLV names until the final > allocation and RFC publication. > > > > > > > > 298 format specified in Section 2 of > [draft-ietf-pim-sr-p2mp-policy]. > 299 The structure of this sub-TLV is illustrated in the figure > below. > > <major> Please add text to clarify here that the CP identifiers are not > required since the Instance-ID is unique within the SR P2MP Policy context > (with a reference to section 2.3 of the p2mp policy draft). > > HB> There is no CP identifier in any text or document. Adding this would > create more confusion and have the reader searching for what is a CP > identifier. > > > > KT> This looks like a disconnect. Refer > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-pim-sr-p2mp-policy-18.html#section-2.3 > .. and this is why I've provided comments on the SR P2MP policy document to > clarify some of those things inline. > > > > An SR P2MP Policy has one or more CPs. Identification of a CP in context > of the P2MP Policy is as specified in Section 2.9 of [RFC9256 > <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-pim-sr-p2mp-policy-18.html#RFC9256> > ]. > > > > HB2> I can add a text to say that this sub-TLV is testing a P2MP Tree > Instance as such it is not necessary to identify the candidate path. > > HB2> hopefully this will solve your concern with regards to the sub-tlv > name as well. > > > > KT2> Yes, that text would help. Do still consider the change of sub-TLV > name though - IANA doesn't have an issue with that - so the question is for > the authors/WG really. > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan > > > > > > > 315 * Address Family: (2 octets) IPv4/IPv6 ADDRESS FAMILY NUMBERS > as > 316 specified in [IANA-AF] , indicating the address family of the > 317 Root. > > <major> Are all AFIs allowed? I believe it has to allow only IPv4 or IPv6? > > HB> as per text "Address Family: (2 octets) IPv4/IPv6 ADDRESS FAMILY > NUMBERS as specified in" > > > > KT> Could you be more specific and disallow AFI values other than 1 and 2 > in the text? > > > > HB2> ok done thanks. > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan > > > > > 319 * Address Length: (1 octet) specifying the length of the Root > 320 Address in octets (4 octets for IPv4, 16 octets for IPv6). > > <major> reserved is missing; also I believe it MBZ > HB> good point thanks! > > 382 5. IANA Consideration > > 384 IANA has assigned a TEMPORARY code point for the "P2MP Policy > MPLS > 385 Candidate Path" Sub-TLV Name. This Sub-TLV is assigned from > TLV type > 386 1 (Target FEC Stack) from the "Multi-Protocol Label Switching > (MPLS) > 387 Label Switched Paths (LSPs) Ping Parameters" registry group. > The > 388 Sub-TLVs for TLV type 1 are listen under "Sub-TLVs for TLV > Types 1, > > <minor> s/listen/listed > > HB> thanks! Updated. > > 397 6. Security Considerations > > 399 Overall, the security needs for P2MP policy ping are the same as > 400 [RFC8029]. The P2MP policy ping is susceptible to the same > three > 401 attack vectors as explained in RFC8029 section 5. The same > 402 procedures and recommendations explained in [RFC8029] section 5 > 403 should be taken and implemented to mitigate these attack > vectors for > 404 P2MP policy Ping as well. > > <major> Should this not include reference to the security considerations > of the SR P2MP policy draft as well? > > HB> ok thanks added a text > > <EoRv18> > > _______________________________________________ pim mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]