RE: RE: PCELS position

"Pana, Mircea" <[email protected]> Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:51:02 -0500
Newsgroups gmane.ietf.policy
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David,

Regards,
Mircea.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David McTavish [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 1:33 PM
> To: 'Robert Moore'; John Strassner
> Cc: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; David McTavish; 'Joel M. Halpern'; John
> Strassner; 'Pana, Mircea'; '[email protected]'; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position
> 
> 
> Hi Bob,
> Unfortunately, in LDAP, attributes must be globally unique.
I don't think this is unfortunate ;-)

> So, if an
> attribute is defined as "foo" in one objectclass as a 
> boolean, and as an
> integer in another class, this causes an incompatibility. In
This should be prevented from happening but it is a matter of server
implementation. To be compliant with LDAP one must stick to the syntax
globally defined for the attribute.
 
> some cases
> (OpenLDAP), this prevents the server from even starting. It's 
> not the most
> elegant implementation, but something you get used to when 
> working on LDAP.
You make it sound so painful ;-)

> 
> Hope this is informational,
> d.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Moore [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 1:26 PM
> To: John Strassner
> Cc: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; 'David McTavish'; 'Joel M. Halpern'; John
> Strassner; 'Pana, Mircea'; '[email protected]'; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >Furthermore, the argument that you are "reusing" an 
> attribute foo in a new
> class bar is completely specious, because the new class >bar 
> is different
> than the original class baz that defined foo. The differences are very
> fundamental - different hierarchies, different >attributes, and worse
> (e.g., the definition of priority). This isn't reuse, this is simply
> stealing an OID.
> 
> John, I'll have to say that I'm missing the essence of your 
> argument here.
> Formally (as you've acknowledged), LDAP falls into the same 
> category as
> X.500 and CMIP: attributes are defined, and maintain their identity,
> independent of the classes in which they appear.  (Digression 
> for those who
> haven't worked in the DMTF: CIM works the opposite way -- an 
> attribute's
> identity is tied to the class in which it is defined, so that 
> it's possible
> to have two attributes with identical names defined in two 
> different CIM
> classes.  This is, of course, a potential source of 
> confusion, so there
> were DMTF guidelines saying "Don't do this."  But these provided an
> artificial overlay of global scope on attributes whose identity was
> inherently scoped by the classes that defined them.)  I don't 
> have specific
> experience with X.500 and LDAP, but I do know that in the 
> CMIP case it was
> perfectly good practice (in fact, it was typical) to define attributes
> without regard to the classes that would include them.  I'm 
> don't see why
> X.500 and LDAP should be any different.  But your use of the 
> wording "...
> the original class baz that defined foo" suggests that you see some
> non-formal, but nevertheless significant sense in which LDAP 
> attributes
> *are* defined relative to the (first?) class that contains them.
> 
> Regards,
> Bob
> 
> Bob Moore
> WebSphere Advanced Design and Technology
> WebSphere Platform System House
> IBM Software Group
> +1-919-254-4436
> [email protected]
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>                       John Strassner
> 
>                       <John.Strassner@inte        To:       
> "'Pana, Mircea'"
> <[email protected]>, "'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'"                
>                       lliden.com>                  
> <[email protected]>,
> "'David McTavish'" <[email protected]>, "'[email protected]'" 
>                       Sent by:                     <[email protected]>
> 
>                       [email protected]        cc:       
> John Strassner
> <[email protected]>, "'Joel M. Halpern'"           
>                       g                            
> <[email protected]>
> 
>                                                   Subject:  
> RE: [Policy] RE:
> PCELS position                                               
>  
> 
>                       09/23/2003 01:03 PM
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you are trying to determine the validity of an 
> information model
> based on the concerns of one specific data model. This is backwards.
> 
> Furthermore, the argument that you are "reusing" an attribute 
> foo in a new
> class bar is completely specious, because the new class bar 
> is different
> than the original class baz that defined foo. The differences are very
> fundamental - different hierarchies, different attributes, 
> and worse (e.g.,
> the definition of priority). This isn't reuse, this is simply 
> stealing an
> OID.
> 
> So, how about defining a NEW set of classes and attributes? And if you
> prefixes the new classes and attributes, this would also get 
> around the
> schema problem that I stated earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> regards,
> John
> 
> 
> John C. Strassner
> Chief Strategy Officer
> Intelliden Inc.
> 90 South Cascade Avenue
> Colorado Springs, CO  80906  USA
> phone:  +1.719.785.0648
>   fax:     +1.719.785.0644
> email:    [email protected]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pana, Mircea [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:21 AM
> To: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; 'David McTavish'; Pana, Mircea;
> '[email protected]'
> Cc: 'John Strassner'; 'Joel M. Halpern'
> Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe there is no need for such drastic measures. Maybe it is 
> only a matter
> of interpretation of the PCIMe recommendations. After all 
> PCIMe is quite
> lenient wrt. that is and what is not used in submodels (see 
> PCIMe section
> 5.10.).
> 
> 
> Some of the structural changes proposed by PCIMe make it difficult for
> PCELS to be interoperable with PCLS. These are as follows:
> 
> 
> 1. PCIMe defines a new abstract class, PolicySet, and makes 
> it a superclass
> of the already defined PolicyRule and PolicyGroup
> 
> 
> 2. In PCIMe the PolicyRule.Priority property has been 
> deprecated in favor
> of a new relative priority mechanism.
> 3. PolicyRepository is deprecated in favor of the new
> ReusablePolicyContainer.
> 
> PCELS could be interoperable with PCLS if it was to interpret 
> these PCIMe
> changes as follows:
> A. there is no need to have an explicit LDAP mapping of the abstract
> PolicySet. (see also B.)
> B. there is no need to have an explicit LDAP mapping of the modified
> PolicyGroup. Implementations can use (the equivalent of) a 
> PolicyRule with
> no Actions or Conditions for PolicyGroup objects.
> 
> 
> C. implementations SHOULD (as opposed to MUST) use the 
> relative priority
> mechanism instead of the absolute priority attribute of PolicyRule
> 
> 
> D. PolicyRepository SHOULD not be used directly but it is 
> acceptable for
> instances of this class to occur through inheritance.
> 
> 
> So, the question is whether the statements A. through D. 
> violate PCIMe or
> not. Opinions?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Mircea.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wijnen, Bert (Bert) [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 6:14 AM
> To: 'David McTavish'; 'Pana, Mircea'; '[email protected]'
> Cc: 'John Strassner'; 'Joel M. Halpern'
> Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position
> 
> 
> 
> W.r.t.
> >  Is PCIMe considered so complete, that it is beyond 
> modification, if such
> 
> >  modification could preserve its intent while also adhering to the
> desires
> > of maintaining consistency with PCIM and PCLS?
> 
> 
> PCIMe is at Proposed Standard. If, for example because of 
> this effort to
> try and MAP it onto LDAP, we
> find that we did some things in PCIMe that we should not have 
> done, then,
> with WG consensus,
> we can make incompatible changes to PCIMe and then recycle at Proposed
> Standard.
> That is part of the normal standars track process. That is, we get
> something to PS, then we start
> using/implementing (the "using" part is reusing PCIMe 
> definitions in otehr
> CIM docs (like the
> other docs we did in Policy, and like the IPsec work, the 
> "implementing" is
> sort of mapping onto for
> example LDAP I think)... and if we find major issues, then we fix and
> recycle at PS. If we do not
> find major issues, we may advance to DS.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps.
> Bert
> 
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>David,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mircea.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: David McTavish [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</A>=
]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 1:33 =
PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: 'Robert Moore'; John Strassner</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Cc: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; David McTavish; =
'Joel M. Halpern'; John</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Strassner; 'Pana, Mircea'; '[email protected]'; =
[email protected]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hi Bob,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Unfortunately, in LDAP, attributes must be =
globally unique.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't think this is unfortunate ;-)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; So, if an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; attribute is defined as &quot;foo&quot; in one =
objectclass as a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; boolean, and as an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; integer in another class, this causes an =
incompatibility. In</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>This should be prevented from happening but it is a =
matter of server implementation. To be compliant with LDAP one must =
stick to the syntax globally defined for the attribute.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; some cases</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; (OpenLDAP), this prevents the server from even =
starting. It's </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; not the most</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; elegant implementation, but something you get =
used to when </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; working on LDAP.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>You make it sound so painful ;-)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hope this is informational,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; d.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Robert Moore [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 1:26 =
PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: John Strassner</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Cc: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; 'David McTavish'; =
'Joel M. Halpern'; John</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Strassner; 'Pana, Mircea'; '[email protected]'; =
[email protected]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;Furthermore, the argument that you are =
&quot;reusing&quot; an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; attribute foo in a new</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; class bar is completely specious, because the =
new class &gt;bar </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; is different</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; than the original class baz that defined foo. =
The differences are very</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; fundamental - different hierarchies, different =
&gt;attributes, and worse</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; (e.g., the definition of priority). This isn't =
reuse, this is simply</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; stealing an OID.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; John, I'll have to say that I'm missing the =
essence of your </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; argument here.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Formally (as you've acknowledged), LDAP falls =
into the same </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; category as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; X.500 and CMIP: attributes are defined, and =
maintain their identity,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; independent of the classes in which they =
appear.&nbsp; (Digression </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; for those who</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; haven't worked in the DMTF: CIM works the =
opposite way -- an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; attribute's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; identity is tied to the class in which it is =
defined, so that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it's possible</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to have two attributes with identical names =
defined in two </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; different CIM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; classes.&nbsp; This is, of course, a potential =
source of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; confusion, so there</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; were DMTF guidelines saying &quot;Don't do =
this.&quot;&nbsp; But these provided an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; artificial overlay of global scope on =
attributes whose identity was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; inherently scoped by the classes that defined =
them.)&nbsp; I don't </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; have specific</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; experience with X.500 and LDAP, but I do know =
that in the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; CMIP case it was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; perfectly good practice (in fact, it was =
typical) to define attributes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; without regard to the classes that would =
include them.&nbsp; I'm </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; don't see why</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; X.500 and LDAP should be any different.&nbsp; =
But your use of the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; wording &quot;...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the original class baz that defined foo&quot; =
suggests that you see some</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; non-formal, but nevertheless significant sense =
in which LDAP </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; attributes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; *are* defined relative to the (first?) class =
that contains them.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Bob</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Bob Moore</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; WebSphere Advanced Design and Technology</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; WebSphere Platform System House</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; IBM Software Group</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; +1-919-254-4436</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; [email protected]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; John Strassner</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &lt;John.Strassner@inte&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &quot;'Pana, Mircea'&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &lt;[email protected]&gt;, &quot;'Wijnen, Bert =
(Bert)'&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; =
lliden.com&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &lt;[email protected]&gt;,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &quot;'David McTavish'&quot; =
&lt;[email protected]&gt;, &quot;'[email protected]'&quot; </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Sent =
by:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;[email protected]&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; [email protected]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; John Strassner</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &lt;[email protected]&gt;, =
&quot;'Joel M. =
Halpern'&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; =
g&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &lt;[email protected]&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Subject:&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; RE: [Policy] RE:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; PCELS =
position&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; 09/23/2003 01:03 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Again, you are trying to determine the validity =
of an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; information model</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; based on the concerns of one specific data =
model. This is backwards.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Furthermore, the argument that you are =
&quot;reusing&quot; an attribute </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; foo in a new</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; class bar is completely specious, because the =
new class bar </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; is different</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; than the original class baz that defined foo. =
The differences are very</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; fundamental - different hierarchies, different =
attributes, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and worse (e.g.,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the definition of priority). This isn't reuse, =
this is simply </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; stealing an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; OID.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; So, how about defining a NEW set of classes and =
attributes? And if you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; prefixes the new classes and attributes, this =
would also get </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; around the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; schema problem that I stated earlier.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; John</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; John C. Strassner</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Chief Strategy Officer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Intelliden Inc.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 90 South Cascade Avenue</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Colorado Springs, CO&nbsp; 80906&nbsp; =
USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; phone:&nbsp; +1.719.785.0648</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; fax:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+1.719.785.0644</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; email:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[email protected]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Pana, Mircea [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:21 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; 'David McTavish'; =
Pana, Mircea;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; '[email protected]'</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Cc: 'John Strassner'; 'Joel M. Halpern'</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Maybe there is no need for such drastic =
measures. Maybe it is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; only a matter</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of interpretation of the PCIMe recommendations. =
After all </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; PCIMe is quite</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; lenient wrt. that is and what is not used in =
submodels (see </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; PCIMe section</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 5.10.).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Some of the structural changes proposed by =
PCIMe make it difficult for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; PCELS to be interoperable with PCLS. These are =
as follows:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 1. PCIMe defines a new abstract class, =
PolicySet, and makes </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it a superclass</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of the already defined PolicyRule and =
PolicyGroup</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 2. In PCIMe the PolicyRule.Priority property =
has been </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; deprecated in favor</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of a new relative priority mechanism.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 3. PolicyRepository is deprecated in favor of =
the new</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ReusablePolicyContainer.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; PCELS could be interoperable with PCLS if it =
was to interpret </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; these PCIMe</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; changes as follows:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; A. there is no need to have an explicit LDAP =
mapping of the abstract</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; PolicySet. (see also B.)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; B. there is no need to have an explicit LDAP =
mapping of the modified</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; PolicyGroup. Implementations can use (the =
equivalent of) a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; PolicyRule with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; no Actions or Conditions for PolicyGroup =
objects.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; C. implementations SHOULD (as opposed to MUST) =
use the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; relative priority</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; mechanism instead of the absolute priority =
attribute of PolicyRule</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; D. PolicyRepository SHOULD not be used directly =
but it is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; acceptable for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; instances of this class to occur through =
inheritance.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; So, the question is whether the statements A. =
through D. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; violate PCIMe or</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; not. Opinions?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Thanks,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mircea.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Wijnen, Bert (Bert) [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 6:14 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: 'David McTavish'; 'Pana, Mircea'; =
'[email protected]'</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Cc: 'John Strassner'; 'Joel M. Halpern'</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; W.r.t.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; Is PCIMe considered so complete, =
that it is beyond </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; modification, if such</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; modification could preserve its =
intent while also adhering to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; desires</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; of maintaining consistency with PCIM and =
PCLS?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; PCIMe is at Proposed Standard. If, for example =
because of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; this effort to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; try and MAP it onto LDAP, we</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; find that we did some things in PCIMe that we =
should not have </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; done, then,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; with WG consensus,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; we can make incompatible changes to PCIMe and =
then recycle at Proposed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Standard.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; That is part of the normal standars track =
process. That is, we get</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; something to PS, then we start</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; using/implementing (the &quot;using&quot; part =
is reusing PCIMe </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; definitions in otehr</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; CIM docs (like the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; other docs we did in Policy, and like the IPsec =
work, the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &quot;implementing&quot; is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; sort of mapping onto for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; example LDAP I think)... and if we find major =
issues, then we fix and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; recycle at PS. If we do not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; find major issues, we may advance to DS.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hope this helps.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Bert</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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