[saag] Re: Proposal for Discussion: The Secure Internet – Embedding Trust into the Protocol Layer

On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 2:37 AM Thi Nguyen-Huu <[email protected]> wrote:

> Thanks, Wang.
>
>
>
> I will answer your questions, but can you clarify for me one thing first:
> Did you – or SAAG - get the pdf files I sent to e.g. [email protected]
> August 19?
>
>
>
> I wanted to avoid repeating if you have read those pdf files. Thanks.
>

I did not. I believe they were filtered out.

-Ekr


>

>
> PS. And sorry, we still need time for I-D draft and IETF format…
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *Thi Nguyen-Huu | *CEO
>
>
>
> Tel: +1 905.502.7000 x 3288  |  Toll Free: 888.879.5879
> [email protected] |  www.winmagic.com
>
>
>
> *WinMagic Corp.* | 11-80 Galaxy Blvd.
>
> Toronto, ON  |  M9W 4Y8 |  Canada | www.winmagic.com
>
> <http://www.facebook.com/WinMagicInc>   <https://twitter.com/winmagic>
> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/winmagic>
> <https://www.winmagic.com/blog/>
>
> [image: A person holding a phone and typing on a computer AI-generated
> content may be incorrect.] <https://winmagic.com/en/secure_internet/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Wang Guilin <[email protected]>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 1, 2025 9:31 PM
> *To:* Thi Nguyen-Huu <[email protected]>; Eric Rescorla <[email protected]>;
> saag <[email protected]>
> *Cc:* saag <[email protected]>; Sergei Nikitin <[email protected]>;
> Wang Guilin <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* [saag] Re: Proposal for Discussion: The Secure Internet –
> Embedding Trust into the Protocol Layer
>
>
>
> You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn
> why this is important <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
>
> CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links, open attachments or respond unless you recognize the sender
> and know that the content is safe.
>
>
>
> Hi, Thi,
>
>
>
> Yes, also agree that an internet draft would be better to describe what
> the Secure Internet is and how it works.
>
>
>
> Technically, it is hard for me to understand what a Live Key is in
> cryptographic essence. Say, still a normal private key associated with an
> explicilit or implicit public key? Detailed description and some examples
> may need.
>
>
>
> Also, if one user u1 in the domain of identity provider idP1 would like to
> communictate u2 in the domain of idP2, how can they establish trust between
> them as u1 may not trust idP2 and u2 may not trust idP1.
>
>
>
> Finally, it seems that the proposal heavily relies on hardware. So, how
> can applications without secure hardware assumptions run securely?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Guilin
>
>
>
>
>
> *发件人：*Thi Nguyen-Huu <[email protected]>
>
> *收件人：*Eric Rescorla <[email protected]>;saag <[email protected]>
>
> *抄* *送：*saag <[email protected]>;Sergei Nikitin <[email protected]>
>
> *时* *间：*2025-08-19 17:37:34
>
> *主* *题：*[saag] Re: Proposal for Discussion: The Secure Internet –
> Embedding Trust into the Protocol Layer
>
>
>
> Dear SAAG members,
>
> I’m writing to follow up on my earlier outreach regarding *The Secure
> Internet* architecture. After further reflection and community feedback,
> I believe this initiative is best introduced through a *BOF (Birds of a
> Feather)* session rather than a standalone Internet-Draft.
>
>
>
> The *Secure Internet (SI)* enables what legacy architectures deemed
> infeasible — and what users have long dreamed of:
>
>    - *No user action*: No passwords, no MFA, no friction.
>    - *Protocol-native protection*: Cryptographic defense against session
>    hijacking and adversary-in-the-middle (AitM) attacks.
>
>
>
> SI proposes a new trust model for the Internet — one that replaces static
> credentials and certificate-based authentication with *policy-bound
> cryptographic keys anchored in hardware*, available only when *organizational
> trust conditions* are met. This enables *non-interactive, mutual
> authentication* via mTLS without certificates, transforming how endpoints
> and services establish trust.
>
> Given the architectural scope — spanning transport security, endpoint
> identity, and trust enforcement — SI does not fit neatly into existing
> working groups. It introduces foundational concepts such as:
>
>    - *Live Key*: A dynamic identity signal tied to verified user presence
>    and device integrity.
>    - *LIM/TIM (The Identity Machine)*: A system that governs Live Key
>    availability based on policy.
>    - *MagicEndpoint*: A trusted channel between endpoint and IdP,
>    enabling continuous identity signaling.
>
> I believe a BOF is the right venue to:
>
>    - Explore the feasibility of a new working group
>    - Discuss technical foundations and deployment models
>    - Align with existing standards (TLS, FIDO2, RATS)
>    - Define a roadmap for multiple RFCs under the Secure Internet umbrella
>
> I’ve sent to [email protected] and [email protected] a BOF proposal and use
> cases and would welcome your guidance on next steps. I’m also happy to
> coordinate with other interested parties to organize the session and seed
> discussion with initial drafts.
>
> Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to your thoughts.
>
>
>
> Warm regards,
> *Thi Nguyen-Huu*
> Proposer and Lead Architect of The Secure Internet
> CEO, WinMagic Inc.
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> *Thi Nguyen-Huu | *CEO
>
>
>
> Tel: +1 905.502.7000 x 3288  |  Toll Free: 888.879.5879
> [email protected] |  www.winmagic.com
>
>
>
> *WinMagic Corp.* | 11-80 Galaxy Blvd.
>
> Toronto, ON  |  M9W 4Y8 |  Canada | www.winmagic.com
>
> <http://www.facebook.com/WinMagicInc>   <https://twitter.com/winmagic>
> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/winmagic>
> <https://www.winmagic.com/blog/>
>
> [image: A person holding a phone and typing on a computer AI-generated
> content may be incorrect.] <https://winmagic.com/en/secure_internet/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Eric Rescorla <[email protected]>
> *Sent:* Friday, August 15, 2025 4:22 PM
> *To:* Thi Nguyen-Huu <[email protected]>
> *Cc:* StJohns, Michael <[email protected]>; Salz, Rich <
> [email protected]>; [email protected]; Paul Wouters <[email protected]>;
> Sergei Nikitin <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* Re: [saag] Re: Proposal for Discussion: The Secure Internet –
> Embedding Trust into the Protocol Layer
>
>
>
> You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn why this is important
> <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
>
> CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links, open attachments or respond unless you recognize the sender
> and know that the content is safe.
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> If you want this to be considered by the IETF, a good start would be to
> submit an internet-draft with the specific proposal you have in mind.
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2025 at 7:54 AM Thi Nguyen-Huu <thi.nh=
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Michael and Rich.
>
>
>
> Sorry we did not do this before. Please see if this is good. Thanks.
>
> ---
>
>
>
> IPR Holder: Thi Nguyen-Huu
>
> Document(s): Letter_Secure_Internet_IETF_W3C.docx (and any revisions)
>
> And attached the revised Letter_Secure_Internet_IETF_W3C_5.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
> Patent Information:
>
> The IPR holder is not aware of any patent or patent application that
> covers or may cover the technology described in the above-referenced
> document.
>
>
>
> Additional Notes:
>
> This declaration is made in good faith in accordance with the IETF IPR
> policy defined in RFC 8179.
>
>
>
> Submitted by: Thi Nguyen-Huu, CEO of WinMagic Corporation
>
> Date: 11 August 2025
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *Thi Nguyen-Huu | *CEO
>
>
>
> Tel: +1 905.502.7000 x 3288  |  Toll Free: 888.879.5879
> [email protected] |  www.winmagic.com
>
>
>
> *WinMagic Corp.* | 11-80 Galaxy Blvd.
>
> Toronto, ON  |  M9W 4Y8 |  Canada | www.winmagic.com
>
> <http://www.facebook.com/WinMagicInc>   <https://twitter.com/winmagic>
> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/winmagic>
> <https://www.winmagic.com/blog/>
>
> [image: A person holding a phone and typing on a computer AI-generated
> content may be incorrect.] <https://winmagic.com/en/secure_internet/>
>
>
>
> *From:* StJohns, Michael <[email protected]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 13, 2025 1:06 PM
> *To:* Thi Nguyen-Huu <[email protected]>
> *Cc:* Paul Wouters <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Sergei Nikitin
> <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* Re: [saag] Re: Proposal for Discussion: The Secure Internet –
> Embedding Trust into the Protocol Layer
>
>
>
> You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn why this is
> important <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
>
> CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links, open attachments or respond unless you recognize the sender
> and know that the content is safe.
>
>
>
> Hi - it would be helpful if you could make an IPR declaration similar to
> what the IETF uses for its documents, but by email. The amount of
> encumbrance will play heavily into whether this gets any traction with the
> IETF community.
>
>
>
> Thanks - Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2025 at 09:56 Thi Nguyen-Huu <thi.nh=
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Paul.
>
>
>
>    1. I am replying and add [email protected]. I will resend to [email protected]
>    as well. Thanks.
>
>
>
>    2. Just a comment: our idea to eventually omit the certificate can be
>    an option for the future. It’s not essential for the Live Key and mTLS.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *Thi Nguyen-Huu | *CEO
>
>
>
> Tel: +1 905.502.7000 x 3288  |  Toll Free: 888.879.5879
> [email protected]
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,%0D%0A+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>|
> www.winmagic.com
>
>
>
> *WinMagic Corp.* | 11-80 Galaxy Blvd.
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,%0D%0A+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> Toronto, ON
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,%0D%0A+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>
> |
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,%0D%0A+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>
> M9W 4Y8 |
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,%0D%0A+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>
> Canada
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,%0D%0A+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>
> | www.winmagic.com
>
> <http://www.facebook.com/WinMagicInc>   <https://twitter.com/winmagic>
> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/winmagic>
> <https://www.winmagic.com/blog/>
>
> [image: A person holding a phone and typing on a computer AI-generated
> content may be incorrect.] <https://winmagic.com/en/secure_internet/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Paul Wouters <[email protected]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 12, 2025 12:39 PM
> *To:* Thi Nguyen-Huu <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* Re: Proposal for Discussion: The Secure Internet – Embedding
> Trust into the Protocol Layer
>
>
>
> You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn why this is
> important <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
>
> CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links, open attachments or respond unless you recognize the sender
> and know that the content is safe.
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Thi,
>
>
>
> The Security Area Directors were forwarded this email.
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> *From: *"Thi Nguyen-Huu via RT" <[email protected]>
>
> *Subject: Proposal for Discussion: The Secure Internet – Embedding Trust
> into the Protocol Layer*
>
> *Date: *August 11, 2025 at 3:51:53 PM PDT
>
>
>
>
>
> *Subject:* Proposal for Discussion: The Secure Internet – Embedding Trust
> into the Protocol Layer
>
>
>
> Dear IETF and W3C Working Group Members,
>
>
>
> I’m writing to propose a discussion around a new architectural model we
> call *The Secure Internet*—a vision that reimagines how identity and
> trust are established online by embedding them directly into the transport
> layer.
>
> the appropriate venue to discuss such items would be the SAAG mailing list
> of the IETF.
>
>
>
> At the core of this model is a cryptographic identity signal called the *Live
> Key*, derived from the user presence, security posture and anchored in
> TPM hardware. This signal is long-lived, non-exportable, and accessible
> only when specific security conditions are met—such as active user’s OS
> login, full disk encryption, and up-to-date system patches. These
> conditions are *policy-defined*, allowing organizations to enforce
> dynamic, context-aware trust requirements beyond simple user presence.
>
> Furthermore, the Live Key enables *mutual TLS (mTLS)* without requiring
> client-side certificates.
>
> you will likely run into big resistance for the significant privacy risks
> associated with this proposal. but as I said, the proper discussion venue
> within the IETF for this would be the SAAG mailing list.
>
>
>
> Paul, on behalf of the SEC Area Directors
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Instead, the client registers its Live Key directly with the server,
> similar to the FIDO model. This simplifies trust establishment, eliminates
> the need for certificate authorities, and enables personalized,
> cryptographically assured sessions.
>
> The Secure Internet aligns with the goals of both *TLS* and
> *WebAuthn/FIDO2*:
>
>    - It complements mTLS by enabling certificate-less client
>    authentication.
>    - It enhances FIDO2 and Passkeys by offering a transport-level trust
>    mechanism that can eliminate user interaction and additional policy-defined
>    signals check while maintaining strong assurance.
>    - It inherently satisfies and exceeds *NIST FAL3-level assurance* without
>    tokens, or channel binding. The architecture can eliminate the need for
>    federated authentication entirely. In this model, the identity provider
>    (IdP) evolves into a real-time, CA-like trust authority—capable of
>    informing the relying party (service provider) when a previously registered
>    public key is no longer trusted.
>
> *Importantly, this model does not require changes to existing standards—at
> least not initially.* It builds on them, offering a new way to express
> identity and trust natively within the protocol layer. In the future,
> optional client certificates may be considered as part of evolving
> standards. We believe this approach could be of interest to working groups
> focused on TLS, OAuth, WebAuthn, and identity federation.
>
> We would welcome the opportunity to present this concept, share open
> specifications, and explore how it might align with ongoing efforts across
> both IETF and W3C.
>
> Thank you for your consideration.
>
>
>
> PS. The same text is in the attachment. And for more info on our website
> please visit: https://winmagic.com/en/secure_internet/
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> *Thi Nguyen-Huu | *CEO
>
>
>
> Tel: +1 905.502.7000 x 3288  |  Toll Free: 888.879.5879
> [email protected]
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>|
> www.winmagic.com
>
>
>
> *WinMagic Corp.* | 11-80 Galaxy Blvd.
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> Toronto, ON
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>
> |
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>
> M9W 4Y8 |
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>
> Canada
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/80+Galaxy+Blvd.+%0D%0A+Toronto,+ON+%7C+M9W+4Y8+%7C+Canada?entry=gmail&source=g>
> | www.winmagic.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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