Re: draft-york-sipping-p-charge-info-12: ABNF

"Haluska, John J" <[email protected]> Wed, 30 Nov 2011 08:10:43 -0500
Newsgroups gmane.ietf.sipping
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Dan,

I'll take a look and let you know - I'm out of MIPS at the moment.

Thanks for continuing with this even though you've moved on.


John



From: Dan York [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 2:38 PM
To: Brett Tate
Cc: Tolga Asveren; [email protected]; Haluska, John J
Subject: Re: draft-york-sipping-p-charge-info-12: ABNF

Brett, (and replying from a slightly different address so that it will go t=
o the SIPPING list)

Thank you for the feedback and question.  The ABNF in the draft has evolved=
 over the past almost-4 years as various people more literate than I in ABN=
F have given us feedback and we've updated the draft.

In the ABNF section, "chargeparam" is intended to represent that you could =
optionally have the "noa", "npi" parameters - or any other generic paramete=
rs found in RFC 3261(such as "user=3Dphone")

Originally, the ABNF read:


         P-Charge-Info =3D "P-Charge-Info" HCOLON (name-addr / addr-spec)*

                 (SEMI charge-param)

                 ; name-addr and addr-spec are specified in RFC 3261<http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3261>

             charge-param =3D npi-param / noa-param / generic-param

I thought that was fairly clear and made sense.  However, I changed the ABN=
F in rev -10 in October 2010 to more simply:


         P-Charge-Info =3D "P-Charge-Info" HCOLON (name-addr / addr-spec)

                 ; name-addr and addr-spec are specified in RFC 3261<http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3261>

             charge-param =3D npi-param / noa-param / generic-param

after someone strongly made the case that the "* (SEMI charge-param)" was n=
ot required because it was a "userinfo parameter" to the name-addr/addr-spe=
c element.  Unfortunately, the email exchange about this seems to have NOT =
taken place on the mailing list but rather in a private email exchange - an=
d I no longer have access to the archives of the email account where that o=
ccurred (I am no longer with Voxeo) - so I don't know who it was that argue=
d for this change.

I'm directly cc'ing John Haluska as he was involved in with a number of tho=
se exchanges and can perhaps clarify this.

In reviewing section 19.1.1 of RFC 3261 ( http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc326=
1#section-19.1.1 ) and sections 19.1.2, 19.1.3, and 19.1.6 as well as the A=
BNF in section 25,  I am guessing that the rationale was because the "charg=
e-param" does fit into the "user" section of the URI.

So that's a roundabout way of saying that it is part of "user", as I interp=
ret the ABNF in RFC 3261.

Do you have suggestions for how to make this clearer in the draft?  Would t=
he original ABNF be more useful to you?  Should the sentence "charge-param =
is used as a userinfo parameter in P-Charge-Info" indicate that it is the "=
user" part of the "userinfo" field?

Thanks,
Dan

P.S. After not receiving any feedback for many, many months I suddenly have=
 received two email questions/comments about P-Charge-Info today. I don't k=
now if this is as a result of the mention on a mailing list that Richard Sh=
ockey mentioned... but I was surprised.

On Nov 29, 2011, at 1:35 PM, Brett Tate wrote:


Howdy,

Draft-york-sipping-p-charge-info-12 includes the following ABNF without exp=
licitly indicating if the charge-param is part of user, telephone-subscribe=
r, or both.  I'm not sure how to interpret the charge-param statement since=
 userinfo has no parameters (although user and telephone-subscriber can hav=
e them).

Is charge-param part of user, telephone-subscriber, or both?  I recommend u=
pdating section 7 to remove the ambiguity.

Thanks,
Brett


------

Draft-york-sipping-p-charge-info-12:

"The syntax of the P-Charge-Info header is described as follows:

        P-Charge-Info =3D "P-Charge-Info" HCOLON (name-addr / addr-spec)
                ; name-addr and addr-spec are specified in RFC 3261
            charge-param =3D npi-param / noa-param / generic-param
            npi-param =3D ";npi" EQUAL npi-value
                ; generic-param is specifed in RFC 3261
            npi-value =3D gen-value
            noa-param =3D ";noa" EQUAL noa-value
            noa-value =3D gen-value

  The SIP URI contained in the name-addr/addr-spec is the billing
  indicator that is passed between the parties.

  charge-param is used as a userinfo parameter in P-Charge-Info."


RFC 3261:

userinfo =3D  ( user / telephone-subscriber ) [ ":" password ] "@"
user     =3D  1*( unreserved / escaped / user-unreserved )

RFC 2806:

telephone-subscriber  =3D global-phone-number / local-phone-number

--
Dan York  [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Phone: +1-802-735-1624  skype:danyork
http://www.danyork.com/
http://twitter.com/danyork


--
Dan York  [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
http://www.danyork.com/   skype:danyork
Phone: +1-802-735-1624
Twitter - http://twitter.com/danyork
--------------------------------------------------------
All comments and opinions are entirely my own and have no connection whatso=
ever to any employer, past or present. Indeed, by tomorrow even I might be =
disavowing these comments.
--------------------------------------------------------


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nk=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit=
-line-break: after-white-space'><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:#1F497D'>Dan,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;ll take a look and le=
t you know &#8211; I&#8217;m out of MIPS at the moment.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:#1F497D'>Thanks for continuing with this even though you&#8217;ve moved o=
n.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=
=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma"=
,"sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Dan York [mailto:[email protected]] <br><b>Sent:=
</b> Tuesday, November 29, 2011 2:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> Brett Tate<br><b>Cc:<=
/b> Tolga Asveren; [email protected]; Haluska, John J<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:=
 draft-york-sipping-p-charge-info-12: ABNF<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Brett,=
 (and replying from a slightly different address so that it will go to the =
SIPPING list)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you for the feedback and questi=
on. &nbsp;The ABNF in the draft has evolved over the past almost-4 years as=
 various people more literate than I in ABNF have given us feedback and we'=
ve updated the draft.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>In the ABNF section, &quot;ch=
argeparam&quot; is intended to represent that you could optionally have the=
 &quot;noa&quot;, &quot;npi&quot; parameters - or any other generic paramet=
ers found in RFC 3261(such as &quot;user=3Dphone&quot;)<o:p></o:p></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal>Originally, the ABNF read:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><pre style=3D'page-break-before:alw=
ays;orphans: 2;text-align:-webkit-auto;widows: 2;-webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; P-=
Charge-Info =3D &quot;P-Charge-Info&quot; HCOLON (name-addr / addr-spec)*<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (SEMI charge-param)=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ; name-addr and add=
r-spec are specified in <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3261">RFC =
3261</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always'><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; charge-param =3D npi-param / noa-pa=
ram / generic-param<o:p></o:p></span></pre><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I thought that w=
as fairly clear and made sense. &nbsp;However, I changed the ABNF in rev -1=
0 in October 2010 to more simply:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always=
;orphans: 2;text-align:-webkit-auto;widows: 2;-webkit-text-size-adjust: aut=
o;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span style=3D'font-size=
:12.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; P-Cha=
rge-Info =3D &quot;P-Charge-Info&quot; HCOLON (name-addr / addr-spec)<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ; name-addr and addr-spec=
 are specified in <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3261">RFC 3261</=
a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; charge-param =3D npi-param / noa-param / =
generic-param<o:p></o:p></span></pre><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>after someone strongly made =
the case that the &quot;* (SEMI charge-param)&quot; was not required becaus=
e it was a &quot;userinfo parameter&quot; to the name-addr/addr-spec elemen=
t. &nbsp;Unfortunately, the email exchange about this seems to have NOT tak=
en place on the mailing list but rather in a private email exchange - and I=
 no longer have access to the archives of the email account where that occu=
rred (I am no longer with Voxeo) - so I don't know who it was that argued f=
or this change.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I'm directly cc'ing John Haluska as=
 he was involved in with a number of those exchanges and can perhaps clarif=
y this.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>In reviewing section 19.1.1 of RFC 3261 (&n=
bsp;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3261#section-19.1.1">http://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/rfc3261#section-19.1.1</a>&nbsp;) and sections 19.1.2, 19=
.1.3, and 19.1.6 as well as the ABNF in section 25, &nbsp;I am guessing tha=
t the rationale was because the &quot;charge-param&quot; does fit into the =
&quot;user&quot; section of the URI.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>So that's a ro=
undabout way of saying that it is part of &quot;user&quot;, as I interpret =
the ABNF in RFC 3261.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Do you have suggestions for h=
ow to make this clearer in the draft? &nbsp;Would the original ABNF be more=
 useful to you? &nbsp;Should the sentence &quot;charge-param is used as a u=
serinfo parameter in P-Charge-Info&quot; indicate that it is the &quot;user=
&quot; part of the &quot;userinfo&quot; field?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Than=
ks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dan<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>P.=
S. After not receiving any feedback for many, many months I suddenly have r=
eceived two email questions/comments about P-Charge-Info today. I don't kno=
w if this is as a result of the mention on a mailing list that Richard Shoc=
key mentioned... but I was surprised.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Nov 29, 201=
1, at 1:35 PM, Brett Tate wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0=
pt'>Howdy,<br><br>Draft-york-sipping-p-charge-info-12 includes the followin=
g ABNF without explicitly indicating if the charge-param is part of user, t=
elephone-subscriber, or both. &nbsp;I'm not sure how to interpret the charg=
e-param statement since userinfo has no parameters (although user and telep=
hone-subscriber can have them).<br><br>Is charge-param part of user, teleph=
one-subscriber, or both? &nbsp;I recommend updating section 7 to remove the=
 ambiguity.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Brett<br><br><br>------<br><br>Draft-york-sip=
ping-p-charge-info-12:<br><br>&quot;The syntax of the P-Charge-Info header =
is described as follows:<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;P-Charge-Info =3D &quot;P-Charge-Info&quot; HCOLON (name-addr / addr-s=
pec)<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;; name-addr and addr-spec are specified in RFC=
 3261<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;charge-param =3D npi-param / noa-param / generic-param<br>&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;npi-param =3D =
&quot;;npi&quot; EQUAL npi-value<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;; generic-param is=
 specifed in RFC 3261<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;npi-value =3D gen-value<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;noa-param =3D &quot;;noa&quot=
; EQUAL noa-value<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;noa-value =3D gen-value<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;The SIP URI co=
ntained in the name-addr/addr-spec is the billing<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;indicator =
that is passed between the parties.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;charge-param is used=
 as a userinfo parameter in P-Charge-Info.&quot;<br><br><br>RFC 3261:<br><b=
r>userinfo =3D &nbsp;( user / telephone-subscriber ) [ &quot;:&quot; passwo=
rd ] &quot;@&quot;<br>user &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D &nbsp;1*( unreserved=
 / escaped / user-unreserved )<br><br>RFC 2806:<br><br>telephone-subscriber=
 &nbsp;=3D global-phone-number / local-phone-number<o:p></o:p></p></div></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal>--&nbsp;<br>Dan York &nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:dyork@lodestar=
2.com">[email protected]</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l>Phone: +1-802-735-1624&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"skype:danyork">skype:danyork=
</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.danyork.com/">http://www.danyork.com/</a>&nbs=
p;&nbsp;<br><a href=3D"http://twitter.com/danyork">http://twitter.com/danyo=
rk</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>--&nbsp;<br>=
Dan York &nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</=
a><br><a href=3D"http://www.danyork.com/">http://www.danyork.com/</a>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"skype:danyork">skype:danyork</a><br>Phone: +1-802-73=
5-1624<br>Twitter -&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://twitter.com/danyork">http://twit=
ter.com/danyork</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>---------=
-----------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>All comments and opinions are entirely my own and =
have no connection whatsoever to any employer, past or present. Indeed, by =
tomorrow even I might be disavowing these comments.<o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal>----------------------------------------------------=
----<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</p></div></body></html>=

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