[TLS] Re: Improving the quality of the discussion on the TLS email list

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Mark,

You are right that I should have referred to Fermi estimation. Thx.

To me, this sentence from the security section of the suggests more than
the rule you recommend, "if Y, implement. if N, don't implement."

    Implementers must evaluate their specific security, performance, and
    operational constraints when deciding whether to deploy standalone
    ML-KEM or a hybrid construction.

I don't see how the sophomoric snark about LLMs contributes to the
discussion.

Best,
Paul





On Thu, Jul 30, 2026 at 8:51=E2=80=AFPM <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> Both drafts have a =E2=80=9Crecommended to implement=E2=80=9D flag, where=
 the hybrid draft
> is =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D and the other draft is =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D. I beli=
eve the intention is for
> implementers to look at these flags. It appears to me to be easier to
> understand than several paragraphs of LLM output, but that=E2=80=99s just=
 my
> perspective.
>
> Your usage of =E2=80=9Cdowngrade=E2=80=9D along the lines of Python versi=
ons is also
> confusing. There=E2=80=99s the obvious point (that Sophie referred to) th=
at
> downgrade is a term of art in cryptography, eg has a very specific meanin=
g
> in the field.
>
> Ignoring that, your usage remains confusing. The natural point of
> comparison would have the hybrid scheme as the =E2=80=9Cearlier version=
=E2=80=9D scheme. It
> is a transitional scheme while we gain confidence in MLKEM. If humanity i=
s
> ever able to create a cryptographically relevant quantum computer, it wil=
l
> have additional overhead for no benefit, and should be deprecated shortly
> thereafter.
>
> Note that what you call a =E2=80=9CFeynman estimate=E2=80=9D is not due t=
o Feynman.
> Physicists instead call this technique a =E2=80=9CFermi Estimate=E2=80=9D=
, after Enrico
> Fermi.
>
> Fermi problem <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem>
> en.wikipedia.org <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem>
> [image: wikipedia.png] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem>
>
> This is a minor point. At the same time, it does not raise my confidence
> in the rest of the content of your messages.
>
> Best,
>
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Mark,=C2=A0<br><br></div><div>You ar=
e right that I should have referred to Fermi estimation. Thx.=C2=A0<br><br>=
</div><div>To me, this sentence from the security section of the suggests m=
ore than the rule you recommend, &quot;if Y, implement. if N, don&#39;t imp=
lement.&quot;=C2=A0<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Implementers must evaluate their s=
pecific security, performance, and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 operational constraints when deciding whether to deploy stand=
alone<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ML-KEM or a hybrid construction.</div><div><br></div><div>I d=
on&#39;t see how the sophomoric snark about LLMs contributes to the discuss=
ion.=C2=A0<br><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Paul=C2=A0</div><div><br><br><=
br><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">On Thu, Jul 30, 2026 at 8:51=E2=80=AFPM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@s=
chultz-wu.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Hi Pa=
ul,<div><br></div><div>Both drafts have a =E2=80=9Crecommended to implement=
=E2=80=9D flag, where the hybrid draft is =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D and the other=
 draft is =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D. I believe the intention is for implementers =
to look at these flags. It appears to me to be easier to understand than se=
veral paragraphs of LLM output, but that=E2=80=99s just my perspective.=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Your usage of =E2=80=9Cdowngrade=E2=80=9D alon=
g the lines of Python versions is also confusing. There=E2=80=99s the obvio=
us point (that Sophie referred to) that downgrade is a term of art in crypt=
ography, eg has a very specific meaning in the field.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Ignoring that, your usage remains confusing. The natural point of compa=
rison would have the hybrid scheme as the =E2=80=9Cearlier version=E2=80=9D=
 scheme. It is a transitional scheme while we gain confidence in MLKEM. If =
humanity is ever able to create a cryptographically relevant quantum comput=
er, it will have additional overhead for no benefit, and should be deprecat=
ed shortly thereafter.</div><div><br></div><div>Note that what you call a =
=E2=80=9CFeynman estimate=E2=80=9D is not due to Feynman. Physicists instea=
d call this technique a =E2=80=9CFermi Estimate=E2=80=9D, after Enrico Ferm=
i.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div style=
=3D"display:inline-block" role=3D"link"><a style=3D"border-radius:10px;font=
-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;display:block;width:300px;=
overflow:hidden;text-decoration:none" rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"https://en.w=
ikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem" dir=3D"ltr" role=3D"button" width=3D"300" =
target=3D"_blank"><table style=3D"table-layout:fixed;border-collapse:collap=
se;width:300px;background-color:rgb(230,230,230);font-family:-apple-system,=
Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" border=3D"0=
" width=3D"300"><tbody><tr><td><table bgcolor=3D"#E6E6E6" cellpadding=3D"0"=
 cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"300" style=3D"table-layout:fixed;font-family:-a=
pple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(230,230,230)"><=
tbody><tr><td style=3D"padding:8px 0px"><div style=3D"max-width:100%;margin=
:0px 16px;overflow:hidden"><div style=3D"font-weight:500;font-size:12px;ove=
rflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a rel=3D"nofollow" hr=
ef=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem" style=3D"text-decoration=
:none" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"#000000" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
>Fermi problem</font></a></div><div style=3D"font-weight:400;font-size:11px=
;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a rel=3D"nofollow=
" href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem" style=3D"text-decora=
tion:none" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"#A2A2A9" style=3D"color:rgba(60=
,60,67,0.6)">en.wikipedia.org</font></a></div></div></td><td style=3D"paddi=
ng:6px 12px 6px 0px" width=3D"30"><a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"https://en.wi=
kipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem" target=3D"_blank"><img style=3D"display:inl=
ine-block;width:30px;height:30px;border-radius:3px" width=3D"30" height=3D"=
30" alt=3D"wikipedia.png" src=3D"cid:ii_19fb6111681b0cbbc721"></a></td></tr=
></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></a></div></div><br></div><div>T=
his is a minor point. At the same time, it does not raise my confidence in =
the rest of the content of your messages.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Be=
st,</div><div><br></div><div>Mark</div><div><br id=3D"m_-623382523755277796=
0m_6462839861571648875lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Sen=
t from my iPhone</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></div></div></blockquote><=
/div></div>
</div>

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