[TLS] Re: Discussion about the Deployment Decision

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Hi Paul,

first off, given your now repeated pattern of showing disrespect to people
based on their perceived gender, and going back to the previous
conversation topic of proper use of honorifics, I will have to insist that
you will address me by my last name and honorific from now on. In other
words, that's "Dr. Schmieg" to you. Let us hope for both our sake's that
this helps you with your unconscious biases to make the discussion less
personal.
Secondly, it seems that your foray into predicate logic is even more
precarious than your larger expedition into the field of cryptography. My
stance has been very consistent: I generally consider the non-normative
recommendations parts of IETF documents of lesser importance and am willing
to compromise rather quickly on them, if it helps the standard to emerge
more quickly. I further consider a recommendation flag, following the
language laid out in RFC 2119 to be preferable to the exercise in mathiness
(great term, by the way) of attempting to model expected utility. Both are
rather silly, given that we are talking about a handful of implementers
most of whom are present on this list, but one is a lot sillier than the
other. In other words, my preferences admit a clearly documented
well-ordering.
But even if they didn't, as Dennis pointed out to you in his first email,
standardization is a wicked problem
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem>, and behind the dry
technical documents is a process best described as a social coordination
problem, as studied by sociologists and even, when they are especially
talented, economists. As such applying predicate logic to the statements on
this email list will at best make Wittgenstein cry, and certainly not solve
any underlying disagreements.

Best,
Dr. Sophie Schmieg

On Mon, Aug 3, 2026 at 8:09=E2=80=AFAM Salz, Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dma=
rc.ietf.org>
wrote:

>
> I=E2=80=99m confused.  Paul, what do you want to happen? Do you understan=
d the
> IETF workflow and what =E2=80=9CIETF last call=E2=80=9D means in terms of=
 process?
>
> Do you know what RECOMMENDED=3DN means? Quoting [1]:
>
> If the "Recommended" column is set to "N", it does not necessarily
> mean that it is flawed; rather, it indicates that the item either
> has not been through the IETF consensus process, has limited
> applicability, or is intended only for specific use cases. If the
> "Recommended" column is set to "D," the item is discouraged and
> SHOULD NOT or MUST NOT be used, depending upon the situation;
> consult the item's references for clarity.
>
> The IETF expresses an opinion by saying =E2=80=9CRECOMMENDED=3DN=E2=80=9D=
. Many in the IETF
> recognize that others =E2=80=94 often those deploying and purchasing syst=
ems =E2=80=94 will
> have a different opinion.
>
>
> [1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-parameters#tls-parameters-8
> _______________________________________________
> TLS mailing list -- [email protected]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
>


--=20

Sophie Schmieg | Information Security Engineer | ISE Crypto |
[email protected]

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Paul,<div><br></div><div>first off, given your now repe=
ated pattern of showing disrespect to people based on their perceived gende=
r, and going back to the previous conversation topic of proper use of honor=
ifics, I will have to insist that you will address me by my last name and h=
onorific from now on. In other words, that&#39;s &quot;Dr. Schmieg&quot; to=
 you. Let us hope for both our sake&#39;s that this helps you with your unc=
onscious biases to make the discussion less personal.</div><div>Secondly, i=
t seems that your foray into predicate logic is even more precarious than y=
our larger expedition=C2=A0into the field of cryptography. My stance has be=
en very consistent: I generally consider the non-normative recommendations =
parts of IETF documents of lesser importance and am willing to compromise r=
ather quickly on them, if it helps the standard to emerge more quickly. I f=
urther consider a recommendation flag, following the language laid out in R=
FC 2119 to be preferable to the exercise in mathiness (great term, by the w=
ay) of attempting to model expected utility. Both are rather silly, given t=
hat we are talking about a handful of implementers most of whom are present=
 on this list, but one is a lot sillier than the other. In other words, my =
preferences admit a clearly documented well-ordering.</div><div>But even if=
 they didn&#39;t, as Dennis pointed out to you in his first email, standard=
ization is a <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem">wicke=
d problem</a>, and behind the dry technical documents is a process best des=
cribed as a social coordination problem, as studied by sociologists and eve=
n, when they are especially talented, economists. As such applying predicat=
e logic to the statements on this email list will at best make Wittgenstein=
 cry, and certainly not solve any underlying disagreements.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Best,</div><div>Dr. Sophie Schmieg</div></div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On =
Mon, Aug 3, 2026 at 8:09=E2=80=AFAM Salz, Rich &lt;rsalz=3D<a href=3D"mailt=
o:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Aptos,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Aptos,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
I=E2=80=99m confused.=C2=A0 Paul, what do you want to happen? Do you unders=
tand the IETF workflow and what =E2=80=9CIETF last call=E2=80=9D means in t=
erms of process?</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Aptos,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Aptos,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Do you know what RECOMMENDED=3DN means? Quoting [1]:</div>
<pre><div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;font=
-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">If the &quot;Recommended&quot; column is set t=
o &quot;N&quot;, it does not necessarily=20
mean that it is flawed; rather, it indicates that the item either=20
has not been through the IETF consensus process, has limited=20
applicability, or is intended only for specific use cases. If the=20
&quot;Recommended&quot; column is set to &quot;D,&quot; the item is discour=
aged and=20
SHOULD NOT or MUST NOT be used, depending upon the situation;=20
consult the item&#39;s references for clarity.</div></pre>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Aptos,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
The IETF expresses an opinion by saying =E2=80=9CRECOMMENDED=3DN=E2=80=9D. =
Many in the IETF recognize that others =E2=80=94 often those deploying and =
purchasing systems =E2=80=94 will have a different opinion.</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Aptos,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Aptos,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Aptos,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
[1] <a href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-parameters#tls-paramete=
rs-8" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-parameters#tls-parameters-8</a></div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
TLS mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">tls@i=
etf.org</a><br>
To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targe=
t=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br>
</blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><br></div><span class=
=3D"gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_s=
ignature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"line-height:1.5em;pad=
ding-top:10px;margin-top:10px;color:rgb(85,85,85);font-family:sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small"><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;b=
order-color:rgb(213,15,37);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px"><br>Sophie Schmi=
eg=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;=
border-color:rgb(51,105,232);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0Informat=
ion Security Engineer=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;=
border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(0,153,57);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2p=
x">=C2=A0ISE Crypto=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;bo=
rder-style:solid;border-color:rgb(238,178,17);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2p=
x">=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">sschmieg@=
google.com</a></span></div><div><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;bor=
der-style:solid;border-color:rgb(238,178,17);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px=
"><br></span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;;font-size:medium"></span></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>

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