[TLS] Re: draft-sheffer-tls-pqc-continuity-02: four commen ts on the client cache rules

Yaron Sheffer <[email protected]> Mon, 3 Aug 2026 22:26:41 +0300
Newsgroups gmane.ietf.tls
Message-ID <[email protected]>
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    <p>Hi Nazmus,</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Thank you for your review and the issues you submitted. We will
      review and address them shortly.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Best,</p>
    <p>    Yaron</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/08/2026 7:43, Nazmus Salehin
      Sammo wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:SEZPR02MB7994150469B3D1468943F4C7A1D62@SEZPR02MB7994.apcprd02.prod.outlook.com">
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        Hi all,</div>
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        <br>
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      <div
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        I have been doing a formal analysis of the PQ authentication
        negotiation</div>
      <div
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        drafts as part of an MRes, and I have read</div>
      <div
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        draft-sheffer-tls-pqc-continuity-02 in full. Four comments on
        the</div>
      <div
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        client-side cache rules. All four are filed on the draft's
        tracker with</div>
      <div
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        the detail and the suggested text. I am summarising them here
        for the</div>
      <div
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        record, rather than starting four threads.</div>
      <div
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        <br>
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      <div
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        1. Resumption is not addressed. [1]</div>
      <div
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        <br>
      </div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           Enforcement is anchored entirely on the server Certificate
        message</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           (S3.2: "apply its PQC policy to every CertificateEntry in the</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           server's Certificate message"). Per RFC 8446 S4.4.2 the
        server sends</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           Certificate for every key exchange method "except PSK", and
        S2.2 says</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           directly that on resumption the server "does not send a
        Certificate</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           or a CertificateVerify message". So on a resumed handshake
        that</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           obligation applies to an empty set. It is satisfied with
        nothing to</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           check, the MUST-abort cannot fire, and the commitment is
        never</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           consulted. Confirmed on OpenSSL 3.6.2 with a genuine
        ML-DSA-65 chain:</div>
      <div
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           the resumed handshake completed (Reused, TLSv1.3) with 0
        Certificate</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           and 0 CertificateVerify messages. The draft has no occurrence
        of</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           resumption, PSK, ticket or 0-RTT.</div>
      <div
style="direction: ltr; text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        <br>
      </div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           RFC 8672 S2, covering the same TLS-layer pinning pattern,
        handled</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           this explicitly: "As a result, PSK handshakes MUST NOT
        include the</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           extension defined here." That reasoning rested on the
        misissuance</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           threat model and does not carry over unchanged to the
        undisclosed</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           CRQC attacker of S1, but it is a ready precedent.
        Exploitation is</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           bounded by the 7-day ticket cap in RFC 8446 S4.6.1. This is
        not a</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           harvest-now, decrypt-later attack and I am not claiming it
        is. The</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           specification gap stands on its own, independent of any
        attacker.</div>
      <div
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        <br>
      </div>
      <div
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        2. The withdrawal path lacks the condition its own rule 1 has.
        [2]</div>
      <div
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        <br>
      </div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           S3.6 rule 1 conditions caching on "after the handshake
        completes</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           successfully". Rule 2 conditions clearing only on receiving
        the</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           extension. The suggested fix is one clause, copied from rule
        1.</div>
      <div
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        <br>
      </div>
      <div
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           Two things to be clear about. First, the condition is not
        new:</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           RFC 6797 S8.1 has gated all HSTS state change, including the</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           max-age=0 removal, on a clean secure transport since 2012,
        and</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           RFC 7469 S2.3.1 does the same for pin deletion. Since S1 says
        this</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           extension is modelled on HSTS, the honest description is that
        the</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           normative text did not restate a condition the stated model
        already</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           has. Second, the reference implementation already does the
        right</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           thing: it defers both the cache update and the cache delete
        to</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           SSL_CB_HANDSHAKE_DONE behind an X509_V_OK check, and says why
        in a</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           source comment. So there is no exploitable instance that I
        know of.</div>
      <div
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           My concern is only that none of that appears in the normative
        text,</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           and a second implementer reading rule 2 literally would be
        conformant</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           without it. S4 of the draft already says the intended thing</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           non-normatively ("until they observe zero on a completed
        handshake"),</div>
      <div
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           which is why I think this is editorial rather than a design
        change.</div>
      <div
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        <br>
      </div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        3. A question about the port in the cache key. [3]</div>
      <div
style="direction: ltr; text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        <br>
      </div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           S3.4 keys entries by (RFC 9525 identity, port, TLS/DTLS) and
        says</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           entries differing in any of these MUST NOT be merged, while
        the</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           server's obligation in S3.7 carries no port qualifier and the</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           reference identity is port-independent. So the client
        enforces</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           something narrower than the server has committed to. I am
        asking</div>
      <div
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           rather than asserting: I do not think this is a bypass, since
        under</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           S3.4 no commitment is in force for the key that gets used,
        but I also</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           do not think it is the trust-on-first-use case S5.1
        documents, since</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           S5.1's own justification depends on the client eventually
        connecting</div>
      <div
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           directly, which never happens for a port it never uses.
        Related: S1</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           invokes HSTS, but RFC 6797 S8.3 says "the HSTS Policy applies
        to HTTP</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           over any TCP port of an HSTS Host", so the scoping differs
        from the</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           named model. That may be deliberate for DTLS and non-web use.
        If so</div>
      <div
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           it would be worth saying.</div>
      <div
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        <br>
      </div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           Martin's IETF-126 comments on this cache key not working for</div>
      <div
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           browsers, and on non-uniform multi-CDN deployment, are in the
        same</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           area. I am not claiming new ground there, only asking about
        the port</div>
      <div
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           dimension specifically.</div>
      <div
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        <br>
      </div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        4. "The port" is not defined. [4]</div>
      <div
style="direction: ltr; text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        <br>
      </div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           S3.4 does not say whether "the port" is the authority port
        from the</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           URI or the TCP port actually connected to. These differ under
        an</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           HTTPS RR carrying a port SvcParam, where per RFC 9460 S9.1
        the origin</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           does not change. The two readings give opposite answers about
        whether</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           a cached commitment applies, and that decides whether the
        scope</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
           question in (3) is reachable at all. Two sentences would fix
        it.</div>
      <div
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        <br>
      </div>
      <div
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        None of this touches issue #23. I have Tamarin models behind (1)
        and</div>
      <div
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        (2) and am happy to share them, with the caveat that they are
        models of</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        the S3.2, S3.5 and S3.6 client state machine, not security
        proofs of</div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        TLS 1.3. The OpenSSL result behind (1) is the stronger evidence.</div>
      <div
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        <br>
      </div>
      <div
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        Thanks for the draft. Rule 3 of S3.6 and the S4 text made the
        first two</div>
      <div
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        of these much easier to pin down than they would otherwise have
        been.</div>
      <div
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        <br>
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      <div
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        Nazmus Salehin Sammo</div>
      <div
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        Melbourne Institute of Technology, Melbourne, Australia</div>
      <div
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        Student ID: MIT252100</div>
      <div
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        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a></div>
      <div
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        <br>
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      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        [1]
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/yaronf/draft-sheffer-tls-pqc-continuity/issues/29">https://github.com/yaronf/draft-sheffer-tls-pqc-continuity/issues/29</a></div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        [2]
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/yaronf/draft-sheffer-tls-pqc-continuity/issues/27">https://github.com/yaronf/draft-sheffer-tls-pqc-continuity/issues/27</a></div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        [3]
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/yaronf/draft-sheffer-tls-pqc-continuity/issues/28">https://github.com/yaronf/draft-sheffer-tls-pqc-continuity/issues/28</a></div>
      <div
style="text-align: justify; font-family: Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        [4] <a
href="https://github.com/yaronf/draft-sheffer-tls-pqc-continuity/issues/26"
          data-outlook-id="e3302138-653d-45d0-b4b5-e310f5596ce0"
          moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://github.com/yaronf/draft-sheffer-tls-pqc-continuity/issues/26</a></div>
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      <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
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