[OPSAWG]Re: [tsvwg] Re: Re: Re: Fw: New Version Notification for draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt
Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson=40ericsson.com-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]> Tue, 13 Jan 2026 09:21:15 +0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.opsawg,gmane.ietf.tsvwg,gmane.ietf.mpls |
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--===============3073512483825321140== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=2.16.840.1.101.3.4.2.1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0051_01DC8476.58899050" ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01DC8476.58899050 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0052_01DC8476.58899050" ------=_NextPart_001_0052_01DC8476.58899050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I think I agree with Sebastian on this point.=20 DualQ does implement probabilistic marking with the marking probability = increasing from 0% to 100% as the measured queue delay increases from a = lower limit to an upper limit. Also it may also be more handy to = implement probabilistic marking in 5G RAN. However, AQMs like fq_codel implement a step marker based on measured = queue delay.=20 So, in my opinion, this means that one should not assume probabilistic = marking for L4S. /Ingemar =20 From: [email protected] <[email protected]>=20 Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2026 10:03 To: [email protected] Cc: moeller0=3D40gmx.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]; [email protected]; = [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; = [email protected] Subject: [tsvwg] Re: [OPSAWG]Re: Re: Fw: New Version Notification for = draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt =20 Hi Sebastian, Thank you for further clarification, agree with your points. For L4S, the dual-queue coupled AQM mechanism uses probalisitic ECN = marking for L4S traffic, the IPFIX IE for tracking L4S CE mark ratio is = proposed in this draft, we hope this makes sense. =20 Best regards, Xueyan =20 Original From: SebastianMoeller <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0=3D40gmx.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected] = <mailto:moeller0=3D40gmx.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]> >; Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> = >;=E5=AE=8B=E9=9B=AA=E9=9B=8100038118;[email protected] = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = >;[email protected] <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = >;[email protected] <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = >;[email protected] <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; Date: 2026=E5=B9=B401=E6=9C=8813=E6=97=A5 16:04 Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [OPSAWG]Re: Re: Fw: New Version Notification for = draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt Dear All, > On 13. Jan 2026, at 08:25, Sebastian Moeller = <moeller0=3D40gmx.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected] = <mailto:moeller0=3D40gmx.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]> > wrote: > =20 > Hi Xueyan, > =20 > please see [SM] below. > =20 > On January 13, 2026 8:09:10 AM GMT+01:00, [email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >> Hi Joel, >> Thank you for further suggestions. The consideration for risk of bias = in sampling result is very reasonable, for example CE is marked = probalisticlly rather than marked every packet when potential congestion = occurs. We will add relevant text to section 5 to provide some = operational considerations. > =20 > [SM] DCTCP (and L4S) potentially employ probabilistic marking, rfc3168 = does not. Please do not assumd all CE marks are dctcp-style... > But even dctcp style marking can be deterministic, e.g. as in = fq-codel's ce threshol marking or dualpi2's step threshold. > =20 > Respectfully, may I ask, what is your rational for considering CE = marks probabilistic? [SM2] Rethinking and refining my argument, whether a CE mark is = probabilistic or not is not really a function of marking-law (dctcp vs. = rfc3168) but of the AQM that is used, some operate probabilistically, = some do not. =20 > =20 > Regards > Sebastian > =20 > =20 >> =20 >> Best regards, >> Xueyan >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Original >> =20 >> =20 >> From: jmh.direct <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >=20 >> To: =E5=AE=8B=E9=9B=AA=E9=9B=8100038118;[email protected] = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; >> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >;[email protected] <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >;[email protected] <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; >> Date: 2026=E5=B9=B401=E6=9C=8813=E6=97=A5 13:06 >> Subject: [OPSAWG]Re: [tsvwg] Re: Fw: New Version Notification for = draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt >> =20 >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> OPSAWG mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20 >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>=20 >> =20 >> Tgank you for the replies. It probably would help to reference = traffic sampling as the assumed behavior. This could be coupled with = some discussion of why the risk of bias in the result of sampling a = varying stream, likely with some patterns in its variation, is low. >> =20 >> Yours, >> Joel >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S20 FE 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20 >> Date: 1/12/26 11:04 PM (GMT-05:00) >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20 >> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> , [email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> , [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20 >> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Re: [OPSAWG]Fw: New Version Notification for = draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Hi Joel, >> Thank you for taking time to read the draft, and providing new = aspects we need to consider, we will make updates to the draft to = reflect your comments. >> Please also see my reply inline. >> =20 >> Best regards, >> Xueyan (on behalf-of co-authors) >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> From: JoelHalpern <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > = >> To: =E5=AE=8B=E9=9B=AA=E9=9B=8100038118; >> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >;[email protected] <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >;[email protected] <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; >> Date: 2026=E5=B9=B401=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5 23:56 >> Subject: [tsvwg] Re: [OPSAWG]Fw: New Version Notification for = draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt >> =20 >> The discussion prompted me to read this draft. I have two different = questions about it: >> 1) In what way is it related to L4S? Yes, L4S uses ECN. But ECN is = not restricted to L4S. >>>> Xueyan: The main consideration for L4S service is that L4S = introduces a new ECN codepoint ECT(1) for traffic identification, it = helps the diferenciation between classical and L4S traffic and uses CE = codepoint for potential congestion mark. The monitoring of ECN can = provide Operators with valuable insights, including the ratio of L4S = traffic in the network, statistics of network congestion and granular = visibility for the performance of L4S services. >> But the ECN monitoring in this draft is not limited to L4S, for = example, we also provide the monitoring IEs for ECN(0) and non-ECT, with = a flexible design to satisfy user's monitoring requirements. >> =20 >> 2) Even if we assume this only reports packets with ECN bits enabled = (not 00), generating an IPFIX report for every data packet across many = flows (in some environments, all flows) seems to be tremendous overhead. = Since as I understnad it this is for management monitoring of = operability, not for congestion response, that seems a massive overhead. = Am I misreading the draft? >>>> Xueyan: Yes, we agree that doing this per packets would create too = much overhead. In real deployment, IPFIX performs probalistic sampling = for data collection based on user requirements instead of extracting = data per packet. The specifi data export is determined by IPFIX = configurations and device capabilities, but the general rule is to avoid = creating heavy overhead to network nodes. >> Best regards >> Xueyan >> =20 >> Yours, >> Joel >> On 1/11/2026 9:54 PM, [email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Hi Greg, >> =20 >> Thank you for the good question. >> Yes, ECN is an end-to-end protocol, TCP sender intiates the = signalling and TCP receiver responds. And I think IPFIX works in IP = layer, so the target data extraction is at network nodes. For the = information elements proposed in this drfat, the IPFIX extraction = position may be different based on monitoring purposes. We plan to add = the following text to section 5, does it work for you? >> The IPFIX IEs defined in this draft may have their information = extraction positions adjusted based on different ECN monitoring purposes = in the network. Among them, the basic ECN field elements are used to = reflect the ECN codepoints carried in the IPv4 header, the IPv6 Traffic = Class octet, or the MPLS EXP field. These fields can be flexibly = extracted at any node along the path that has IPFIX export capability. = For tunnel ECN negotiation status IEs, the IPFIX data can only be = provided by the specific tunnel endpoints that participate in the = negotiation. For cumulative statistics IEs, the statistical data may be = processed with a higher priority at traffic aggregation or egress nodes. >> =20 >> For the mpls-ecn draft you shared, it appers to define a new ECN = opcode encapsulated in MNA packets for MPLS data plane. I think it's = actually relevant to the ipfix-ecn draft, if MPLS WG adopts it, we would = like to add the ECN export from MPLS MNA packets to our draft. >> =20 >> Best regards, >> Xueyan >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> From: GregMirsky <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >=20 >> To: =E5=AE=8B=E9=9B=AA=E9=9B=8100038118;Joel Halpern = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; >> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >;[email protected] <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >;mpls <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; >> Date: 2026=E5=B9=B401=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5 06:00 >> Subject: Re: [OPSAWG]Fw: New Version Notification for = draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt >> =20 >> =20 >> Hi Xueyan,thank you for sharing the updated draft. A relatively new = draft draft-halmir-mpls-ecn on supporting ECN in the MPLS using MNA = might be of interest to you and others involved in the matter. And I = have a question. As I understand the ECN, it is a host that is expected = to act on the information collected in the ECN field along the path of a = packet. If that is correct, who's the intended target of the IPFIX = notification about the ECN? Is the intention to act on ECN information = obtained on a segment, e.g., a tunnel, rather than based on the e2e ECN = information? I read Section 5, but was left with these questions. >> =20 >> Regards, >> Greg >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> On Fri, Jan 9, 2026 at 1:53=E2=80=AFAM <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: >> =20 >> =20 >> Hello OPSAWG and TSVWG, >> =20 >> We submited a new draft and posted it in the IETF datatracker = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn/ >> The following IPFIX information elements are introduced for L4S ECN = monitoring: >> - ECN field capture in protocol layer, including ECN field in = IPv4/IPv6 ECN field, MPLS EXP and tunnel ECN negotiation status >> - ECN codepoint statistics, including incremenatl and total count for = non-ECT, ECT(0), ECT(1) and CE packets >> - L4S performance indicator, providing short-term and long-term view = of congestion experienced by L4S traffic >> =20 >> Your review, comments and questions are welcome. >> =20 >> Best regards, >> Xueyan >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Original >> =20 >> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >=20 >> To: =E5=AE=8B=E9=9B=AA=E9=9B=8100038118;=E5=88=98=E5=B0=A700165286; >> Date: 2025=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 16:33 >> Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt >> =20 >> A new version of Internet-Draft draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt = has been >> successfully submitted by Xueyan Song and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> =20 >> Name: draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn >> Revision: 00 >> Title: Export of L4S ECN in IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) >> Date: 2025-12-26 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 14 >> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt >> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn/ >> HTML: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.html >> HTMLized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn >> =20 >> =20 >> Abstract: >> =20 >> This document defines a set of IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) >> Information Elements for monitoring the Low Latency, Low Loss, and >> Scalable throughput (L4S) service. Specially, these elements = enable >> network operators to monitor the Explicit Congestion Notification >> (ECN) information of L4S deployment and performance of traffic. >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> The IETF Secretariat >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> OPSAWG mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20 >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>=20 > -- =20 > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0052_01DC8476.58899050 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><!--[if = gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:DontUseAdvancedTypographyReadingMail/> <w:DontUseJustificationAdvancedTypographyReadingMail/> <w:DontUseHyphenationAdvancedTypographyReadingMail/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"MS Gothic"; panose-1:2 11 6 9 7 2 5 8 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Aptos;} @font-face {font-family:"Microsoft YaHei"; panose-1:2 11 5 3 2 2 4 2 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei"; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"\@Microsoft JhengHei";} @font-face {font-family:"\@Microsoft YaHei";} @font-face {font-family:"\@MS Gothic"; panose-1:2 11 6 9 7 2 5 8 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:#467886; text-decoration:underline;} span.zreadusername {mso-style-name:zreadusername;} span.EmailStyle23 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style></head><body lang=3Den-SE link=3D"#467886" vlink=3D"#96607D" = style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div class=3DWordSection1><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi<br><br>I = think I agree with Sebastian on this point. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>DualQ does = implement probabilistic marking with the marking probability increasing = from 0% to 100% as the measured queue delay increases from a lower limit = to an upper limit. Also it may also be more handy to implement = probabilistic marking in 5G RAN.<br>However, AQMs like fq_codel = implement a step marker based on measured queue delay. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>So, in my opinion, this means that = one should not assume probabilistic marking for = L4S.<br><br>/Ingemar<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3Den-SE = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 = 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><= /b><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> = [email protected] <[email protected]> <br><b>Sent:</b> = Tuesday, 13 January 2026 10:03<br><b>To:</b> = [email protected]<br><b>Cc:</b> moeller0=3D40gmx.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]; = [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; = [email protected]; [email protected]<br><b>Subject:</b> [tsvwg] Re: = [OPSAWG]Re: Re: Fw: New Version Notification for = draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p><span = style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei",sans-serif'>Hi = Sebastian,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft = YaHei",sans-serif'>Thank you for further clarification, agree with your = points.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei",sans-serif'>For = L4S, the dual-queue coupled AQM mechanism uses probalisitic ECN marking = for L4S traffic, the IPFIX IE for tracking L4S CE mark ratio is proposed = in this draft, we hope this makes sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft = YaHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei",sans-serif'>Best = regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft = YaHei",sans-serif'>Xueyan<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p = style=3D'margin:0cm;line-height:15.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div>= <div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'text-align:center;line-height:21.0pt;background:#E0E5E9'><span = style=3D'color:#1388FF'>Original<o:p></o:p></span></p><div = id=3DzwriteHistoryContainer><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'background:#F5F6F8'><strong><span = style=3D'font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black'>From: </span></= strong><span class=3Dzreadusername><span = style=3D'color:black'>SebastianMoeller <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>></span></span><o:p= ></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'background:#F5F6F8'><strong><span = style=3D'font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black'>To: </span></st= rong><span class=3Dzreadusername><span style=3D'color:black'>Sebastian = Moeller <<a = href=3D"mailto:moeller0=3D40gmx.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]">moeller0=3D40gmx.de@dm= arc.ietf.org</a>>;</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#F5F6F8'><strong><span = style=3D'font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black'>Cc: </span></st= rong><span class=3Dzreadusername><span style=3D'color:black'><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;</span></span><span= class=3Dzreadusername><span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic";color:black'>=E5=AE=8B=E9=9B=AA=E9=9B=81</span><span = style=3D'color:black'>00038118;[email protected] <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>= >;[email protected] <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;opsawg@ie= tf.org <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;[email protected] = <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;</span></span><o:p></= o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'background:#F5F6F8'><strong><span = style=3D'font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black'>Date: </span></= strong><span style=3D'color:black'>2026</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black'>=E5=B9=B4</span><span = style=3D'color:black'>01</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic";color:black'>=E6=9C=88</span><span = style=3D'color:black'>13</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic";color:black'>=E6=97=A5</span><span style=3D'color:black'> = 16:04</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'background:#F5F6F8'><strong><span = style=3D'font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black'>Subject: Re: = [tsvwg] [OPSAWG]Re: Re: Fw: New Version Notification for = draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div></= div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Dear All,<br><br><br>> On&nbs= p;13. Jan 2026, at 08:25, Sebastian Moeller= <<a = href=3D"mailto:moeller0=3D40gmx.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]">moeller0=3D40gmx.de@dm= arc.ietf.org</a>> wrote:<br>> = <br>> Hi Xueyan,<br>> = <br>> please see [SM] below.<br>> = <br>> On January 13, 2026 8:09:10 AM&nbs= p;GMT+01:00, <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> = wrote:<br>>> Hi Joel,<br>>> Thank you&nbs= p;for further suggestions. The consideration for= risk of bias in sampling result is&nb= sp;very reasonable, for example CE is marke= d probalisticlly rather than marked every p= acket when potential congestion occurs. We = will add relevant text to section 5 to= provide some operational considerations.<br>>&nbs= p; = <br>> [SM] DCTCP (and L4S) potentially e= mploy probabilistic marking, rfc3168 does not.&n= bsp;Please do not assumd all CE marks = are dctcp-style...<br>> But even dctcp style&= nbsp;marking can be deterministic, e.g. as = in fq-codel's ce threshol marking or dualpi= 2's step threshold.<br>> = <br>> Respectfully, may I ask, what is&n= bsp;your rational for considering CE marks = probabilistic?<br><br>[SM2] Rethinking and refining m= y argument, whether a CE mark is proba= bilistic or not is not really a functi= on of marking-law (dctcp vs. rfc3168) but&n= bsp;of the AQM that is used, some oper= ate probabilistically, some do not. = <br><br>> = <br>> Regards<br>> &n= bsp;Sebastian<br>> <br>> <br>>> = <br>>> Best regards,<br>>> Xueyan<br>>>&= nbsp; <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> Original<br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> From: jmh.direct <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>= > <br>>> To: <span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E5=AE=8B=E9=9B=AA=E9=9B=81</span>00038118;[email protected]&n= bsp;<<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;<br>>&= gt; Cc: <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;[email protected]&nb= sp;<<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;[email protected] = <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;<br>>> Dat= e: 2026<span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E5=B9=B4</span>01<span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E6=9C=88</span>13<span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E6=97=A5</span> 13:06<br>>> Subject: [OPSA= WG]Re: [tsvwg] Re: Fw: New Version Notifica= tion for draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt<br>>> = <br>>> = <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>= > OPSAWG mailing list -- <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br>>> To&n= bsp;unsubscribe send an email to <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br>>&g= t; = <br>>> Tgank you for the replies. &nb= sp;It probably would help to reference traf= fic sampling as the assumed behavior.  = ;This could be coupled with some discussion= of why the risk of bias in the&n= bsp;result of sampling a varying stream, li= kely with some patterns in its variation,&n= bsp;is low.<br>>> = <br>>> Yours,<br>>> Joel<br>>> = <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S2= 0 FE 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone<br>>&= gt; <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> -------- Original message --------<br>&g= t;> From: <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br>&g= t;> Date: 1/12/26 11:04 PM (GMT-05:00)<br>>= ;> To: <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br>>>&n= bsp;Cc: <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>, <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>, <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br>>> Subject:= Re: [tsvwg] Re: [OPSAWG]Fw: New Version&nb= sp;Notification for draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt<br>>&= gt; <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> Hi Joel,<br>>> Thank you for&= nbsp;taking time to read the draft, and&nbs= p;providing new aspects we need to consider= , we will make updates to the draft&nb= sp;to reflect your comments.<br>>> Please = also see my reply inline.<br>>> = <br>>> Best regards,<br>>> Xueyan (on&nbs= p;behalf-of co-authors)<br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> From: JoelHalpern <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = <br>>> To: <span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E5=AE=8B=E9=9B=AA=E9=9B=81</span>00038118;<br>>> Cc:= <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;[email protected]&nb= sp;<<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;[email protected] = <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;<br>>> Dat= e: 2026<span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E5=B9=B4</span>01<span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E6=9C=88</span>12<span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E6=97=A5</span> 23:56<br>>> Subject: [tsvw= g] Re: [OPSAWG]Fw: New Version Notification = ;for draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt<br>>> = <br>>> The discussion prompted me to = read this draft. I have two different= questions about it:<br>>> 1) In what= way is it related to L4S? Yes,&= nbsp;L4S uses ECN. But ECN is not&nbs= p;restricted to L4S.<br>>>>> Xueyan: The&= nbsp;main consideration for L4S service is = that L4S introduces a new ECN codepoint&nbs= p;ECT(1) for traffic identification, it helps&nb= sp;the diferenciation between classical and L4S&= nbsp;traffic and uses CE codepoint for pote= ntial congestion mark. The monitoring of EC= N can provide Operators with valuable insig= hts, including the ratio of L4S traffic&nbs= p;in the network, statistics of network con= gestion and granular visibility for the per= formance of L4S services.<br>>> But the&nb= sp;ECN monitoring in this draft is not = ;limited to L4S, for example, we also = provide the monitoring IEs for ECN(0) and&n= bsp;non-ECT, with a flexible design to sati= sfy user's monitoring requirements.<br>>> = <br>>> 2) Even if we assume this = ;only reports packets with ECN bits enabled= (not 00), generating an IPFIX report = for every data packet across many flows&nbs= p;(in some environments, all flows) seems t= o be tremendous overhead. Since as I&= nbsp;understnad it this is for management m= onitoring of operability, not for congestion&nbs= p;response, that seems a massive overhead. = Am I misreading the draft?<br>>>>>&= nbsp;Xueyan: Yes, we agree that doing this&= nbsp;per packets would create too much over= head. In real deployment, IPFIX performs pr= obalistic sampling for data collection based&nbs= p;on user requirements instead of extracting&nbs= p;data per packet. The specifi data export&= nbsp;is determined by IPFIX configurations and&n= bsp;device capabilities, but the general rule&nb= sp;is to avoid creating heavy overhead to&n= bsp;network nodes.<br>>> Best regards<br>>>&nb= sp;Xueyan<br>>> = <br>>> Yours,<br>>> Joel<br>>> On 1= /11/2026 9:54 PM, <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> = wrote:<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> Hi Greg,<br>>> = <br>>> Thank you for the good questio= n.<br>>> Yes, ECN is an end-to-end pr= otocol, TCP sender intiates the signalling = and TCP receiver responds. And I think = ;IPFIX works in IP layer, so the targe= t data extraction is at network nodes. = ;For the information elements proposed in t= his drfat, the IPFIX extraction position ma= y be different based on monitoring purposes= . We plan to add the following text&nb= sp;to section 5, does it work for you?= <br>>> The IPFIX IEs defined in this&= nbsp;draft may have their information extraction= positions adjusted based on different ECN&= nbsp;monitoring purposes in the network. Among&n= bsp;them, the basic ECN field elements are&= nbsp;used to reflect the ECN codepoints car= ried in the IPv4 header, the IPv6 Traf= fic Class octet, or the MPLS EXP field= . These fields can be flexibly extracted&nb= sp;at any node along the path that has= IPFIX export capability. For tunnel ECN&nb= sp;negotiation status IEs, the IPFIX data c= an only be provided by the specific tu= nnel endpoints that participate in the nego= tiation. For cumulative statistics IEs, the = ;statistical data may be processed with a&n= bsp;higher priority at traffic aggregation or&nb= sp;egress nodes.<br>>> = <br>>> For the mpls-ecn draft you sha= red, it appers to define a new ECN&nbs= p;opcode encapsulated in MNA packets for MP= LS data plane. I think it's actually r= elevant to the ipfix-ecn draft, if MPLS&nbs= p;WG adopts it, we would like to add&n= bsp;the ECN export from MPLS MNA packets&nb= sp;to our draft.<br>>> = <br>>> Best regards,<br>>> Xueyan<br>>>&= nbsp; <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> From: GregMirsky <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = <br>>> To: <span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E5=AE=8B=E9=9B=AA=E9=9B=81</span>00038118;Joel Halpern&nbs= p;<<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;<br>>&= gt; Cc: <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;[email protected]&nb= sp;<<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;mpls <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>;<br>>> Dat= e: 2026<span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E5=B9=B4</span>01<span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E6=9C=88</span>11<span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E6=97=A5</span> 06:00<br>>> Subject: Re:&n= bsp;[OPSAWG]Fw: New Version Notification for dra= ft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt<br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> Hi Xueyan,thank you for sharing&nbs= p;the updated draft. A relatively new draft= draft-halmir-mpls-ecn on supporting ECN in = ;the MPLS using MNA might be of intere= st to you and others involved in the&n= bsp;matter. And I have a question. As = I understand the ECN, it is a host&nbs= p;that is expected to act on the infor= mation collected in the ECN field along&nbs= p;the path of a packet. If that is&nbs= p;correct, who's the intended target of the= IPFIX notification about the ECN? Is = the intention to act on ECN information&nbs= p;obtained on a segment, e.g., a tunnel,&nb= sp;rather than based on the e2e ECN in= formation? I read Section 5, but was l= eft with these questions.<br>>> = <br>>> Regards,<br>>> Greg<br>>> = <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2026 at 1:= 53<span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>=E2=80=AF</span>AM <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>&n= bsp;wrote:<br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> Hello OPSAWG and TSVWG,<br>>> = ; = <br>>> We submited a new draft and&nb= sp;posted it in the IETF datatracker <a = href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn/">ht= tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn/</a><br>>&g= t; The following IPFIX information elements = ;are introduced for L4S ECN monitoring:<br>>&= gt; - ECN field capture in protocol la= yer, including ECN field in IPv4/IPv6 ECN&n= bsp;field, MPLS EXP and tunnel ECN negotiat= ion status<br>>> - ECN codepoint statistic= s, including incremenatl and total count fo= r non-ECT, ECT(0), ECT(1) and CE packets<br= >>> - L4S performance indicator, providing= short-term and long-term view of congestio= n experienced by L4S traffic<br>>> = <br>>> Your review, comments and questions= are welcome.<br>>> = <br>>> Best regards,<br>>> Xueyan<br>>>&= nbsp; <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> Original<br>>> = <br>>> From: <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&nbs= p;<<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>= <br>>> To: <span style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E5=AE=8B=E9=9B=AA=E9=9B=81</span>00038118;<span = style=3D'font-family:"MS Gothic"'>=E5=88=98</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Microsoft = JhengHei",sans-serif'>=E5=B0=A7</span>00165286;<br>>> Date:&nb= sp;2025<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Gothic"'>=E5=B9=B4</span>12<span = style=3D'font-family:"MS Gothic"'>=E6=9C=88</span>26<span = style=3D'font-family:"MS = Gothic"'>=E6=97=A5</span> 16:33<br>>> Subject: New&n= bsp;Version Notification for draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-0= 0.txt<br>>> = <br>>> A new version of Internet-Draft&nbs= p;draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt has been<br>>> = successfully submitted by Xueyan Song and p= osted to the<br>>> IETF repository.<br>>>= = <br>>> Name: draft-song-opsawg-ip= fix-ecn<br>>> Revision: 00<br>>> Title: &= nbsp; Export of L4S ECN in IP Fl= ow Information Export (IPFIX)<br>>> Date: = 2025-12-26<br>>> Group: &nb= sp; Individual Submission<br>>> Pages: &n= bsp; 14<br>>> URL: <a = href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.tx= t">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.txt</a>= <br>>> Status: <a = href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn/">ht= tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn/</a><br>>&g= t; HTML: <a = href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.ht= ml">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn-00.html</= a><br>>> HTMLized: <a = href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn= ">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-song-opsawg-ipfix-ecn</a><b= r>>> <br>>> = <br>>> Abstract:<br>>> = <br>>> This document defines a = ;set of IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX)<= br>>> Information Elements for moni= toring the Low Latency, Low Loss, and<br>&g= t;> Scalable throughput (L4S) service.= Specially, these elements enable<br>>>&n= bsp; network operators to monitor the = ;Explicit Congestion Notification<br>>> = (ECN) information of L4S deployment and per= formance of traffic.<br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> = <br>>> The IETF Secretariat<br>>> = <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> = <br>>> = <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>= > OPSAWG mailing list -- <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br>>> To&n= bsp;unsubscribe send an email to <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br>>&n= bsp;-- = <br>> Sent from my Android device with&n= bsp;K-9 Mail. 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