Re: [Witarea] How to make an elegant IPv4 outage
Franck Martin <[email protected]> Thu, 4 Jun 2026 00:22:51 -0500 (CDT)
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.general,gmane.ietf.tsv-area,gmane.ietf.v6ops |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <1452911820.303145166.1780550571509.JavaMail.zimbra@zmcc-3-mailbox-1.zmailcloud.com> |
--Apple-Mail=_351516F4-CFE5-4BD7-A996-8B656ABF3304 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 For info, the site https://pacific.ipv6forum.com/ is now displaying a = banner announcing the IPv4 outage on 6/6. I=E2=80=99m not sure if all = will work as announced, but if you want to probe the site on 6/6, to see = on how various browsers or CLI react in various conditions... Be nice, it is on one of my personal servers. Franck https://www.peachymango.org/=20 > On Jun 3, 2026, at 16:53, Franck Martin <[email protected]> = wrote: >=20 > Adding v6ops to the list of Cc >=20 > Brian, >=20 > Getting myself up to date with the v6ops. >=20 > I see there is a milestone to adopt by dec 2026 Deploying IPv6 in the = Data Center and Deploying IPv6 in the Enterprise. I have some experience = with this having done that at LinkedIn and been very close to an = IPv6-only deployment. I also was aware of what was happening at the = mothership at Microsoft.=20 >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t see any lead for this besides the WG chair. I would be = happy to contribute and may be to reach out to folks. I quickly looked = through the archives but did not see anything obvious on those topics. >=20 > Franck >=20 >> On Jun 3, 2026, at 15:34, Brian E Carpenter = <[email protected]> wrote: >>=20 >> Franck, >>=20 >> You definitely need to keep [email protected] aware of this. >>=20 >> I assume you are aware of = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only/ and other = work in v6ops related to IPv6-only and IPv6-mostly. >>=20 >> Regards/Ng=C4=81 mihi >> Brian Carpenter >>=20 >> On 04-Jun-26 09:29, Franck Martin wrote: >>> Moving to Witarea, but keeping ietf in the loop for the moment. >>> Hi Surya, >>> Many thanks for those great points. >>>> On Jun 3, 2026, at 13:00, S Moonesamy <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Franck, >>>>=20 >>>> [Cc to witarea@] >>>>=20 >>>> At 11:32 AM 03-06-2026, Franck Martin wrote: >>>>> Today I submitted this Internet Draft (I-D) to the IETF >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-retry-over-ipv6/ >>>>>=20 >>>>> I have been building this site: pacific.ipv6forum.com and I have = been wondering, how could I do an IPv4 outage on this site on 6/6? >>>>>=20 >>>>> I have also seen that Czechoslovakia has mandated the end of IPv4 = on government sites on 6/6/2032, 6 years from now. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I also recall (from recent experience) that it is relatively easy = to reach >90% of IPv6 connections to an internal network (think = datacenter), but the remaining last % are difficult to identify (or = discard) because services may misbehave and prefer IPv4 from time to = time: You don't know if they can't really do IPv4 or if they did not = bother to do IPv6. >>>>>=20 >>>>> In an enterprise environment, micro-services are made redundant, = there are multiple IPs and have fallback mechanisms when they encounter = a 5xx error on one endpoint. >>>>>=20 >>>>> So, I started to work on this Internet Draft. It is ready for the = first round of public comments. I suspect, if successful, it will take 1 = or 2 years to make it a standard. Then an extra 1 or 2 years, before it = is implemented on enough clients (and browsers), we will be just in time = for doing enough IPv4 outages on 6/6 to meet the 6/6/2032 deadline. >>>>=20 >>>> There is a recent thread about IPv6 at = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/BxSOgbF34xbBcijtxf85Pfnb5tc/ = I don't remember seeing anything resulting from that discussion. Having = a draft is, relatively, better than the usual email discussion. The = draft falls under the WIT Area and v6ops (which is in another IETF = Area). >>> I quickly read the thread, and also asked for a summary. I agree = with many points like : some mobiles are IPv6-only (T-Mobile, = Reliance,=E2=80=A6), some networks are IPv6-only on the management side = (Comcast),.. StarLink is moving the needle A LOT in small countries, see = countries on https://pacific.ipv6forum.com = <https://pacific.ipv6forum.com>.. but yes the frontier is Entreprise = adoption. I have some experience here that I=E2=80=99m trying to share. >>>>=20 >>>> Section 1.1 of the draft states that "Governments are also = publishing fixed IPv4 end dates" and lists one example [1]. Are there = any other governments which have a fixed end date? >>> I am not aware of other governments that have published an equally = specific =E2=80=9CIPv4 service ends on <date>=E2=80=9D policy for their = public services. Several others publish IPv6 transition *milestones* = rather than a fixed IPv4 shutdown date =E2=80=94 for example, US OMB = M-21-07 (80% of federal IP-enabled assets in IPv6-only environments by = FY 2025, with strategic intent to phase out IPv4): = https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/M-21-07.pdf >>> The Netherlands and others have long-standing IPv6 = =E2=80=9Cuse-or-explain=E2=80=9D or adoption targets, but not, to my = knowledge, a single published IPv4 end date comparable to the Czech = case. >>> There was also a memo from the State of Washington going in the same = direction=E2=80=A6 >>> I used to track all those=E2=80=A6 looks like I need to do that = again. >>> And I agree that those memos come and go=E2=80=A6 Why? Because it is = not trivial, we (IETF?) ought to make it easier. >>>>=20 >>>> Section 3 of the draft states that "Many operators plan to remove = or disable IPv4 while retaining IPv6 service." Are those plans = available on the operators' websites? >>> I tend to abuse the word =E2=80=9CMany=E2=80=9D, you caught me! I = make a note to change it to =E2=80=9CSome" >>> That being said: >>> * Meta is IPv6-only in their data centers: = https://engineering.fb.com/2017/01/17/production-engineering/legacy-suppor= t-on-ipv6-only-infra/ = <https://engineering.fb.com/2017/01/17/production-engineering/legacy-suppo= rt-on-ipv6-only-infra/> >>> * Google Cloud has guidance for IPv6-only: = https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/networking/connect-ipv6-only-worklo= ads-to-ipv4-with-dns64-and-nat64 = <https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/networking/connect-ipv6-only-workl= oads-to-ipv4-with-dns64-and-nat64> >>> * All the could providers are moving to support IPv6 (because for = instance K8S bring undue complexity when you use NAT, also with the = explosion of AI agents, this will not be sustainable, I=E2=80=99m not = worry, they can afford to buy large chunks of IPv4 - side note: I spoke = recently with a banker on why IPv4 is not on the balance sheet of = companies?) >>> * Cisco has an IPv6-only building: = https://blogs.cisco.com/networking/an-ipv6-campus-of-the-future = <https://blogs.cisco.com/networking/an-ipv6-campus-of-the-future> >>> * Orange is considering IPv6-only: = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DahlY1vwM8qE = <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DahlY1vwM8qE> >>> * Microsoft has IPv6-only deployments (I know that in Azure this is = way more complicated): = https://labs.ripe.net/author/mirjam/ipv6-only-at-microsoft/ = <https://labs.ripe.net/author/mirjam/ipv6-only-at-microsoft/> >>> * LinkedIn is moving to Dual Stack and IPv6-only in their = Datacenters. I may point you to the links in this post: = https://www.patreon.com/posts/ipv6-in-lessons-159595711 where I share my = experience with IPv6. >>> On this last point, I want to say my motivation is more on how to = make life easier for internal deployments than external deployments. As = such I found out that making a software outage is easier than an = infrastructure outage, and easier and faster to rollback. =E2=80=9CYou = can=E2=80=99t fix what you don=E2=80=99t measure=E2=80=9D, if you can = differentiate an IPv4 outage from any other outage, then you don=E2=80=99t= know what to fix. >>> I=E2=80=99m not expecting the web browsers to implement anything = fast, but I think we can have =E2=80=9Cfaster=E2=80=9D implementation in = open source software like gRPC and Rest.Li to make life easier in = enterprises, therefore impacting other software in those enterprises, = which will lead to make it easier on the public Internet... >>> So thanks for all those valid points, I=E2=80=99ll figure out how to = better answer them in version -01. >>> I tried to address the same with email, a while back. See those = expired ID: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-smtp-ipv6-to-ipv4-fallback/ = <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-smtp-ipv6-to-ipv4-fallback/= >, = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-smtp-target-host-selection-i= pv4-ipv6/ = <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-smtp-target-host-selection-= ipv4-ipv6/>. I hope this ID has a bit more chances. >>> Franck >>> PS: if any has more references of mandate or wannabe mandates, = please let me know. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards, >>>> S. Moonesamy >>>>=20 >>>> 1. The IPv6 adoption rate for a social network in that country is = 35.2%. >=20 > --=20 > Witarea mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] --Apple-Mail=_351516F4-CFE5-4BD7-A996-8B656ABF3304 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html aria-label=3D"message body"><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" = content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body = style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = line-break: after-white-space;">For info, the site <a = href=3D"https://pacific.ipv6forum.com/">https://pacific.ipv6forum.com/</a>= is now displaying a banner announcing the IPv4 outage on 6/6. = I=E2=80=99m not sure if all will work as announced, but if you want to = probe the site on 6/6, to see on how various browsers or CLI react in = various conditions...<div><br></div><div>Be nice, it is on one of my = personal = servers.</div><div><br></div><div>Franck</div><div>https://www.peachymango= .org/ <br id=3D"lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 3, 2026, at 16:53, Franck Martin = <[email protected]> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>Adding v6ops to the list = of Cc<br><br>Brian,<br><br>Getting myself up to date with the = v6ops.<br><br>I see there is a milestone to adopt by dec 2026 Deploying = IPv6 in the Data Center and Deploying IPv6 in the Enterprise. I have = some experience with this having done that at LinkedIn and been very = close to an IPv6-only deployment. I also was aware of what was happening = at the mothership at Microsoft. <br><br>I don=E2=80=99t see any lead for = this besides the WG chair. I would be happy to contribute and may be to = reach out to folks. I quickly looked through the archives but did not = see anything obvious on those topics.<br><br>Franck<br><br><blockquote = type=3D"cite">On Jun 3, 2026, at 15:34, Brian E Carpenter = <[email protected]> wrote:<br><br>Franck,<br><br>You = definitely need to keep [email protected] aware of this.<br><br>I assume = you are aware of = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only/ and other = work in v6ops related to IPv6-only and IPv6-mostly.<br><br>Regards/Ng=C4=81= mihi<br> Brian Carpenter<br><br>On 04-Jun-26 09:29, Franck Martin = wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Moving to Witarea, but keeping ietf = in the loop for the moment.<br>Hi Surya,<br>Many thanks for those great = points.<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Jun 3, 2026, at 13:00, S = Moonesamy <[email protected]> wrote:<br><br>Hi = Franck,<br><br>[Cc to witarea@]<br><br>At 11:32 AM 03-06-2026, Franck = Martin wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Today I submitted this = Internet Draft (I-D) to the = IETF<br>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-retry-over-ipv6/<br>= <br>I have been building this site: pacific.ipv6forum.com and I have = been wondering, how could I do an IPv4 outage on this site on = 6/6?<br><br>I have also seen that Czechoslovakia has mandated the end of = IPv4 on government sites on 6/6/2032, 6 years from now.<br><br>I also = recall (from recent experience) that it is relatively easy to reach = >90% of IPv6 connections to an internal network (think datacenter), = but the remaining last % are difficult to identify (or discard) because = services may misbehave and prefer IPv4 from time to time: You don't know = if they can't really do IPv4 or if they did not bother to do = IPv6.<br><br>In an enterprise environment, micro-services are made = redundant, there are multiple IPs and have fallback mechanisms when they = encounter a 5xx error on one endpoint.<br><br>So, I started to work on = this Internet Draft. It is ready for the first round of public comments. = I suspect, if successful, it will take 1 or 2 years to make it a = standard. Then an extra 1 or 2 years, before it is implemented on enough = clients (and browsers), we will be just in time for doing enough IPv4 = outages on 6/6 to meet the 6/6/2032 deadline.<br></blockquote><br>There = is a recent thread about IPv6 at = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/BxSOgbF34xbBcijtxf85Pfnb5tc/ = I don't remember seeing anything resulting from that discussion. = Having a draft is, relatively, better than the usual email = discussion. The draft falls under the WIT Area and v6ops (which is = in another IETF Area).<br></blockquote>I quickly read the thread, and = also asked for a summary. I agree with many points like : some mobiles = are IPv6-only (T-Mobile, Reliance,=E2=80=A6), some networks are = IPv6-only on the management side (Comcast),.. StarLink is moving the = needle A LOT in small countries, see countries on = https://pacific.ipv6forum.com <https://pacific.ipv6forum.com>.. = but yes the frontier is Entreprise adoption. I have some experience here = that I=E2=80=99m trying to share.<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br>Section= 1.1 of the draft states that "Governments are also publishing fixed = IPv4 end dates" and lists one example [1]. Are there any other = governments which have a fixed end date?<br></blockquote>I am not aware = of other governments that have published an equally specific =E2=80=9CIPv4= service ends on <date>=E2=80=9D policy for their public services. = Several others publish IPv6 transition *milestones* rather than a fixed = IPv4 shutdown date =E2=80=94 for example, US OMB M-21-07 (80% of federal = IP-enabled assets in IPv6-only environments by FY 2025, with strategic = intent to phase out IPv4): = https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/M-21-07.pdf<br>The = Netherlands and others have long-standing IPv6 =E2=80=9Cuse-or-explain=E2=80= =9D or adoption targets, but not, to my knowledge, a single published = IPv4 end date comparable to the Czech case.<br>There was also a memo = from the State of Washington going in the same direction=E2=80=A6<br>I = used to track all those=E2=80=A6 looks like I need to do that = again.<br>And I agree that those memos come and go=E2=80=A6 Why? Because = it is not trivial, we (IETF?) ought to make it easier.<br><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br>Section 3 of the draft states that "Many operators = plan to remove or disable IPv4 while retaining IPv6 service." Are = those plans available on the operators' websites?<br></blockquote>I tend = to abuse the word =E2=80=9CMany=E2=80=9D, you caught me! I make a note = to change it to =E2=80=9CSome"<br>That being said:<br> * Meta is = IPv6-only in their data centers: = https://engineering.fb.com/2017/01/17/production-engineering/legacy-suppor= t-on-ipv6-only-infra/ = <https://engineering.fb.com/2017/01/17/production-engineering/legacy-su= pport-on-ipv6-only-infra/><br> * Google Cloud has guidance for = IPv6-only: = https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/networking/connect-ipv6-only-worklo= ads-to-ipv4-with-dns64-and-nat64 = <https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/networking/connect-ipv6-only-wo= rkloads-to-ipv4-with-dns64-and-nat64><br> * All the could providers = are moving to support IPv6 (because for instance K8S bring undue = complexity when you use NAT, also with the explosion of AI agents, this = will not be sustainable, I=E2=80=99m not worry, they can afford to buy = large chunks of IPv4 - side note: I spoke recently with a banker on why = IPv4 is not on the balance sheet of companies?)<br> * Cisco has an = IPv6-only building: = https://blogs.cisco.com/networking/an-ipv6-campus-of-the-future = <https://blogs.cisco.com/networking/an-ipv6-campus-of-the-future><br= > * Orange is considering IPv6-only: = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DahlY1vwM8qE = <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DahlY1vwM8qE><br> * Microsoft = has IPv6-only deployments (I know that in Azure this is way more = complicated): = https://labs.ripe.net/author/mirjam/ipv6-only-at-microsoft/ = <https://labs.ripe.net/author/mirjam/ipv6-only-at-microsoft/><br> = * LinkedIn is moving to Dual Stack and IPv6-only in their Datacenters. I = may point you to the links in this post: = https://www.patreon.com/posts/ipv6-in-lessons-159595711 where I share my = experience with IPv6.<br>On this last point, I want to say my motivation = is more on how to make life easier for internal deployments than = external deployments. As such I found out that making a software outage = is easier than an infrastructure outage, and easier and faster to = rollback. =E2=80=9CYou can=E2=80=99t fix what you don=E2=80=99t = measure=E2=80=9D, if you can differentiate an IPv4 outage from any other = outage, then you don=E2=80=99t know what to fix.<br>I=E2=80=99m not = expecting the web browsers to implement anything fast, but I think we = can have =E2=80=9Cfaster=E2=80=9D implementation in open source software = like gRPC and Rest.Li to make life easier in enterprises, therefore = impacting other software in those enterprises, which will lead to make = it easier on the public Internet...<br>So thanks for all those valid = points, I=E2=80=99ll figure out how to better answer them in version = -01.<br>I tried to address the same with email, a while back. See those = expired ID: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-smtp-ipv6-to-ipv4-fallback/ = <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-smtp-ipv6-to-ipv4-fallba= ck/>, = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-smtp-target-host-selection-i= pv4-ipv6/ = <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-smtp-target-host-selecti= on-ipv4-ipv6/>. I hope this ID has a bit more = chances.<br>Franck<br>PS: if any has more references of mandate or = wannabe mandates, please let me know.<br><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br>Regards,<br>S. Moonesamy<br><br>1. The IPv6 adoption = rate for a social network in that country is = 35.2%.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><br>-- <br>Witarea = mailing list -- [email protected]<br>To unsubscribe send an email to = [email protected]<br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body>= </html>= --Apple-Mail=_351516F4-CFE5-4BD7-A996-8B656ABF3304--