Re: Live System images and Pure Blends

Hello Stefan,

On 24/07/2022 13:02, Stefan Kropp wrote:
> I have been started to look into live system generation
> (live-build), Be honest, I have never been used a Debian Live CD.
> Few days/weeks back I looked into the live CD which are provided
> by Debian (live-wrapper).

Your timing is rather unfortunate. At the moment there are no recent 
(i.e. bookworm/sid) live images being generated and the snapshot server 
that I use to generate them was shut down during DebConf22.

However, yesterday I updated the script to generate live-build-based 
images such that can be run without a snapshot server.

See the recently updated Wiki page 
(https://wiki.debian.org/ReproducibleInstalls/LiveImages) in the section 
'Building'

> I also think, it is very important to provide live-systems also
> for the next releases.

I'm working on that, but it needs more time.

> I have been looked into:
> 
>   * debian-live-11.4.0-amd64-standard.iso (1,1G / 800 packages)
>   * debian-live-11.4.0-amd64-xfce.iso (2,5G / 2270 packages)
>   * debian-live-11.4.0-amd64-gnome.iso (2,7G / 2572 packages)

The live-build sid-based GNOME image is now 3.2GB / 2540 packages
You could download a recent GNOME live image from openQA:
https://openqa.debian.net/tests/65162/asset/iso/gnome_sid_20220711T170000Zdeb.iso

The tests that running are at: 
https://openqa.debian.net/tests/overview?distri=debian&version=sid&build=20220711T170000Z_sid&groupid=14

> I'm wondering if we should refine those images. Maybe the Debian
> Project and the users can benefit from it.

These images use the meta-package 'live-task-XXXX' to select which 
packages belong to each desktop. E.g live-task-gnome depends on 
task-gnome-desktop. Any adjustment can take place in these meta-packages.

> One of the live images is called "standard". What does standard
> means? What can the user do with the "standard" image?

The standard image does not contain a graphical desktop. It could have 
been called 'text' as well.

> I looked 
> into xfce and gnome. The gnome image also includes few games,
> evolution and thunderbird. xfce doesn't have a mailclient at all.

You might want to report a bug against live-task-xfce or 
task-xfce-desktop to add a mail client.

> I think one person at the BoF said, it's not necessary to build a
> image for every desktop manager. Personally, I agree.

For the record, that was Mrfai.
While my time is still limited, I will also (have to) focus on a few 
images at first.

> I asked myself:
> 
>   * Who will use the live system?
>   * Why will somebody use the live system?
>   * When should we provide a Debian Pure Blend?
> 
> Who will use the live system? Everybody!
> Why will somebody use the live system? Everything!
> 
> It may helpful we the project defines some images with a scope.
> Maybe something like this,..
> 
> # Rescue Disk Image
> 
> An image for a live system to rescues a broken system. It may
> have a set of useful tool, but may not have a X-Server. Powerful
> editor, maybe also gnu compilers and manpages and screen / tmux.
> 
> This is not just a 'small' Rescue Disk Image this will be a real
> powerful Debian system (without X).

I don't want to discourage you, but there are already several 
Debian-derivatives that do a good job. Also the Debian-installer (from 
the boot menu) has some rescue capability (not tried by me yet)

> # Calamares-Installer
> 
> Live System to provide the Calamares-Installer. The live system
> can be used to install Debian with Calamares.
> (I haven't used it - I can not give much feedback, yet)

The Calamares installer is targeted at a broader audience.
At the moment there is no automated test yet in openQA.

<snip>

> The use case is: "Let's try Debian and see what it is". The
> result: "It's awesome!" To achieve this result, we need to have a
> good set of pre-installed applications.
> 
> Now, pure blends come in. I think the goal of the pure blends is
> exactly what we need for Desktop / Office / Junior / Med / ...
> The 'experts' (blends team) knows which packages are required /
> helpful / working.

Agreed.

> One idea would be to provide packages like
> 
> 	debian-{desktop,office,med,junior}-live-system
> 
> Those packages will include a well defined structure to build the
> live-system images via live-build.

<snip>

You can use a 'Tasks' meta package for that.

> Personally, I think it would be much better to provide "soon" the
> possible to access to the pure blends, instead to "wait" a long
> time until we are able to find a nice solution for a hierarchical
> selection. Sure, if somebody is able to provide a solution, it's
> fine.

You can file an ITP for the 'task-debian-junior' metapackage.

> We should also work on a README.html / pdf file as a first
> "Welcome" and guide new users where they can get more help. Links
> to pre-installed documentation, Debian Wiki pages, Debian Local
> Groups.
> 
> I have created a small example of a Debian Desktop live system.
> https://salsa.debian.org/StefanKropp/debian-desktop-live-system/

The 'Welcome to Debian' is a separate topic. I'll respond later.

With kind regards,
Roland Clobus