Re: [Slightly OT] Philosophy (was Re: Replacement for Abiword: LyX? Openoffice?)

On Tue, 2003-10-21 at 19:14, Harry McGregor wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-10-21 at 16:26, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On Tue, 2003-10-21 at 17:07, Ben Armstrong wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2003 at 04:13:49PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
[snip]
> > For example, if I'd had a computer when I was young, there's no
> > way that I'd have read so many books, and, thus, even though my
> > joystick skills would be more highly developed, my intellect and
> > "world exposure" would be much diminished.
> 
> Who says that books per say are a "good thing"?  Learning, and knowledge

I do.

> are.  It happens that since the invention of the printing press the
> preferred method of individual learning has been the book.
> 
> Now, I would not advocate removing books from a child, but at the same
> time, technology, including computers, can reduce the level of cost to
> obtain the same amount of knowledge as the books.
> 
> Take a look at any school library.  Most are shrinking.  This includes
> the library at Corbett Elementary School (OSEF's current Linux on the
> Desktop test site), and they won National School Library Media Program
> of The Year in 2000 from the American Library Association.  Technology
> helps fill this economic gap.

Curl up with a good mini-tower?

> > > And why should any of that be to the exclusion of running, jumping, or any 
> > > of the other things you mentioned?  All of the children do those things 
> > > without any prompting at all, and we give them plenty of opportunities to 
> > > develop in those ways.
> > 
> > Ok, here's another provocative question: why is it needed?  Anyone
> > over 40 grew up without computers, and there are lots of 40+ geeks.
> > (Those of us who are 40+ can attest to this.)
> 
> It's like saying "we did not have indoor plumbing when I was a kid". 
> Times change, if you don't take advantage of the resources at your
> disposal, you will fall behind, quickly.

Be real.  The luxury of a computer is a far cry from sanitary plumb-
ing, and not having to walk out in the rain or cold to "eliminate".

> Now, talking with most Teachers, they are going to say that computers
> are a horrible waste.  There is good reason for this.  Most schools do
> not manage computers and technology properly, they don't foster the
> ability to use the tools.  Most schools spend over $5K USD per seat to
> manage technology, this is far more than it should cost.  Part of OSEF's
> mission is to enhance education through Open Source & Free Software
> tools and methodology, as well as reduce the costs of technology for
> education.
> 
> > Yes, computers are better than the TV, but the kids are going to be
> > in front of them so often (young people going into the military are
> > much heavier, and less in shape than they used to be) for the rest
> > of their lives.  So, pushing it back for a couple of years can't
> > hurt them.
> 
> I think you can better blame this in diet and exercise habits than you
> can on the use of technology.

And what's one of the reasons that exercise habits are so bad?
TV, video games and their cousin, the computer.  Stupid schools
eliminating recess & PE is also boneheaded.

> > > > Yes, I have 2 young children: boy aged 5.67, girl aged 4.25, and
> > > > yes, I am a database administrator (after being a programmer for
> > > > many years), and I've been very successful at it, while not having
> > > > been exposed to computers until 12th grade.  (Although I could have
> > > > used WordStar to type book reports & term papers.)
> > > 
> > > I have five children, all of whom use the computer in varying degrees, and 
> > > all of whom discovered them early in life.  I, too, have a background in 
> > > computers, but I came to it much earlier in life: at around age 8.  I don't 
> > > think the early exposure has warped me, but then again, maybe it has, and 
> > > I'm just too warped to realize it. :)
> > > 
> > > If it were a matter of deciding whether to *push* computers on children at 
> > > an early age or not, I would see your point.  But they are such a part of 
> > 
> > Which lots of parents are doing.
> 
> I see very few parents pushing their children to use the computer.  I do
> see them setting up accounts, and instructing them on how to login.

You see different parents than I do.

> Beyond that, usage patterns is based upon the child's desire to use the
> computer.  It's not form 4pm-6pm you will be learning how to use the
> computer.
> 
> > > life now that I would have to actively *shield* my children from them to 
> > > avoid this "exposure" that you seem to think is detrimental to their 
> > > development.
> > 
> > I won't be able to shield them for long, whether I want to or not....
> > 
> > When they turn 6-7, it will be interesting to teach them Python
> > if they are interested.
> 
> The major goals we have at Corbett with the Kinder and 1st grade
> students is to learn that technology is a tool, and is accessible. 
> Basic mouse and keyboard input, as well as simple educational games
> (TuxPaint, and Gcompris for example).  The students get on average 45
> minutes/week in the computer lab.
> 
> > >              I'm not willing to do that, nor do I really see the point.  So 
> > > long as everything is kept in proper balance (just as I wouldn't feed your 
> > > 2-year-old a diet of junk food, neither do I plunk the kids in front of the 
> > > computer for hours at a time) using computers at an early age can be a fun 
> > > and constructive part of their growing up, without taking away from all of 
> > > the other more classically "kid" things that kids do.
> > 
> > But, as I said before, when they're in front of the computer, they
> > aren't doing "the other things".
> 
> Kids can multitask far better than adults IMHO.
> 
> 		Harry
> > 
> > -- 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Ron Johnson, Jr. [email protected]
> > Jefferson, LA USA
> > 
> > "I have been assured by a very knowing American of my
> > acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is
> > at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food,
> > whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt
> > that it will equally serve in a fricassee or a ragout."
> > A MODEST PROPOSAL FOR PREVENTING THE CHILDREN OF POOR PEOPLE IN
> > IRELAND FROM BEING A BURDEN TO THEIR PARENTS OR COUNTRY
> 
> --
> Harry McGregor, CEO, Co-Founder
> [email protected], (520) 661-7875 (CELL)
> Open Source Education Foundation, http://www.osef.org
> A non-profit tax exempt charitable organization

-- 
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Ron Johnson, Jr. [email protected]
Jefferson, LA USA

"Millions of Chinese speak Chinese, and it's not hereditary..."
Dr. Dean Edell