Re: A small Debian-NP detail

Interesting on all counts. We have messed with k12ltsp and had issues 
with sound. That is sort of a BIG issue in a ctc as you say.

John

Mark Bucciarelli wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 May 2004 09:20 pm, Holmes Wilson wrote:
> 
>>Hi John,
>>
>>The ball is still just getting rolling, so we haven't put all the
>>information up there yet about our experiences, and we didn't really
>>have the people to put together learning materials.  I got really busy
>>with other projects, and a few other people left town.  But, the lab
>>has been a pretty successful after school drop-in program for local
>>kids, many of whom don't have computers and most of whom don't have
>>internet access.  So that's pretty positive.
>>
>>The thing I've been most impressed with by LTSP/Debian has been the
>>stability.  We have a bunch of young kids in there 4 days a week for a
>>few hours clicking on pop-up ads, messing around with the settings, and
>>generally beating the crap out of the computers.  But in almost a year
>>we've done practically no maintenance, and everything still works fine.
>>  If we had Windows PCs we'd need to do a clean re-install every two
>>weeks or the computers would be completely unusable.  That's the one
>>thing that makes me really confident in recommending linux for
>>nonprofit labs: the reliability.
>>
>>I'd say the biggest downsides are:
>>
>>1) really crummy cut and paste functionality between Mozilla and
>>Openoffice.
>>This is a killer, and it was really surprising how big a deal it was.
>>First, you can't copy images from Mozilla into openoffice-- you have to
>>save the files to disk and then "Insert an Image".  All the little kids
>>got a crash course in how directory trees worked each time they wanted
>>to put a picture in their report.   Second, when you copy a big section
>>of text it tries to paste it into openoffice.org as html, which throws
>>ooo into its completely-inscrutable html editing mode.  It would be
>>better if it just pasted plain text.  And we'd do this all the time
>>because in order to save paper we really wanted people to paste images
>>and text into documents, so they'd print out more efficiently (no 20
>>page printouts with 30 pt text).  But quite often it simply wouldn't
>>work, or it would have to be fiddled with.  I've even tried this with
>>the latest versions in Fedora Core 2, and it still doesn't work.   That
>>made me want to switch to Konqueror and KWord, but the version of
>>Konqueror for Debian stable really sucks.
> 
> 
> I'm running Debian testing with KDE 3.2.2 and was able to drag and drop an 
> image from Konqueror into OpenOffice.
> 
> 
>>2) no local CD/floppy support.
>>I know they have this working, I just couldn't figure it out.
>>Hopefully it will come out of the box in newer versions
>>
>>3) Clicking on a program multiple times opens multiple instances of it.
>>This is a terrible thing for beginners, especially on underpowered
>>hardware.  There should be some global switch that allows you to shut
>>it off, or at least to make it impossible to launch the same
>>application twice within 30 seconds.  We have a hack that does this for
>>Mozilla, but it should come out of the box.
>>
>>4) no local sound support.
>>We got it working on one computer, but it was really tricky and had to
>>be manually configured each time.  Also, lots of old computers have ISA
>>soundcards that linux rarely autodetects.
>>
>>My general issue with Debian is that it's too slow to incorporate new
>>stuff.  This makes sense for people running servers where everything is
>>already more or less good enough.  But for Desktop users linux is *not
>>good enough yet* and so it's really important to get the newest
>>versions of everything onto peoples' computers quickly.  It seems like
>>Fedora Core is going to be pretty good at getting out the new stuff.  I
>>think we'll be switching to K12LTSP.org with FC 2 when it comes out.
> 
> 
> I think if you want desktop functionality, you probably will have to run 
> Debian testing.  I don't know about Gnome, but the time between a new KDE 
> point release and the time it hits testing is very short.
> 
> Don't let the "testing" label scare you: I've been running testing and KDE 
> 3.2 every day all day for a couple weeks and have not had a single 
> problem.
> 
> 
>>Plus, I just checked out your organization's website.  It looks
>>awesome.  Myself and some friends are really interested in putting
>>together a compendium of tech tools and resources for nonprofits and
>>activist groups.
>>
>>Holmes
>>
>>On May 26, 2004, at 8:46 AM, john stanton wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Holmes,
>>>
>>>Your site and project looks great. For my part I would be interested
>>>in hearing about your sucesses and obstacles etc using LTSP/Debian in
>>>the lab. Are you planning on putting any info on the site about that?
>>>Also are you developing/using any curricullem for the labs that you
>>>can share?
>>>
>>>John
>>>npotechs.org
>>>
>>>Holmes Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>I just joined the list.  My name's Holmes Wilson and I'm involved
>>>>with running a program that uses donated computers and linux to set
>>>>up labs in my town of Worcester, Massachusetts: worcestercoop.org.
>>>>It's similar to Freegeek, but a lot smaller, and still just getting
>>>>going.  A big part of my interest in the project has to do with
>>>>turning nonprofits on to the benefits of free software, so I'm really
>>>>into the idea of Debian NP, and I think making a live CD was a very
>>>>good call.
>>>>Anyway, I just tried out the Debian-NP live CD, and I have a couple
>>>>small points that I think could make the next version better suited
>>>>for its purpose:
>>>>The first was that I really think the default background art should
>>>>be replaced with something more conservative.  Not because I don't
>>>>like the graphic, or because I personally think people should have
>>>>boring Desktop backgrounds--I hate Windows98 green just as much as
>>>>the next guy.  But speaking as someone who's really tried to pitch
>>>>Linux to skeptical, non-tech-savvy people who run community groups,
>>>>it's always seemed like the number one challenge is convincing them
>>>>that linux is not some weird wacky thing that will make their
>>>>computers even more inscrutable.  To that end, I think Debian-NP
>>>>would be a more effective demonstration if the computer looked a
>>>>little less weird.  A solid, darkish color or a nice gradient would
>>>>be a lot better, I think.   If it were subtly branded with something
>>>>like "Debian-NP: Linux for nonprofits", then so much the better.  But
>>>>I think the beaker filled with magenta liquid is a bit too trippy for
>>>>people who are already nervous about changing computers (and may
>>>>already be leaning towards thinking I'm some hippy idealist :)
>>>>The second issue was with the menu in the panel.  Having a separate
>>>>menu for Debian apps is confusing and strange.  Things are set up
>>>>that way too at an LTSP lab we run, and I've seen it confuse people.
>>>>Most people aren't going to know what Debian is, and to beginners
>>>>(nearly everyone, when it comes to Linux) it's bad to introduce
>>>>unnecessary arbitrary terms for things, because it confuses people.
>>>>Some of those programs shouldn't be in the panel menu at all, and
>>>>other very useful ones are buried under several layers because
>>>>they're in the "Debian menu".  If we could put all the programs
>>>>considered useful in a single panel menu that would be a lot less
>>>>confusing for first-time users.
>>>>Thanks everybody, for putting together such a nice tool, and I'm
>>>>looking forward to being part of this discussion.
>>>>Holmes
> 
>