Re: Wiki: suggestion about Translation header

Hi,


On 06/03/25 12:01, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I was looking at the DefaultTemplate, in particular this bit at the top
> (quoted for email):
> 
>> ##For Translators - to have a constantly up to date translation header 
>> in you page, you can just add a line like the following (with the 
>> comment's character at the start of the line removed)
>> ##<<Include(DefaultTemplate, ,from="^##TAG:TRANSLATION-HEADER- 
>> START",to="^##TAG:TRANSLATION-HEADER-END")>>
>> ##TAG:TRANSLATION-HEADER-START
>> ~-[[DebianWiki/EditorGuide#translation|Translation(s)]]: 
>> [[DefaultTemplate|English]] - [[es/DefaultTemplate|Español]] - [[fr/ 
>> DefaultTemplate|Français]] - [[sr/DefaultTemplate|српски]]-~
>> ##TAG:TRANSLATION-HEADER-END
> 
> The intention of the instruction to use "Include" is so that the 
> translation header can be changed in one place and updates automatically 
> applied to all pages using it.

Sorry, I will start saying that I might not undestand the whole of your 
message (I surely lost you at some point, and I am afraid it's my fault).

That part was added for translators and by translators and it became an 
"unspoken" practice through time because it helps the work of translators.

The intention is so that when the list of translated languages (the 
translation header) changes in a master English page, it updates 
automatically in all its translated pages.

I think all the commented parts for Translators could be left commented.

the start and end TAGs could be decommented because whether they are 
used or not in a translated page (or anywhere else) they don't do any harm.

> However, when someone creates a new page using DefaultTemplate, unless 
> they take special care to change it, they just include the above 
> verbatim. (See e.g. <https://wiki.debian.org/IRC>, although there's a 
> subtle misunderstanding in there…). This means they are not actually 
> transcluding the header from DefaultTemplate, and instead have a static 
> copy from page creation time.

Actually in that page it works exactly as it should. It is a comment for 
translators.
The Include line is correctly commented because it is supposed to be 
used in translated pages (look for instance to 
https://wiki.debian.org/it/IRC.
And it was not included verbatim, whomever put it there took care to 
change the commented Include line from

##<<Include(DefaultTemplate, 
,from="^##TAG:TRANSLATION-HEADER-START",to="^##TAG:TRANSLATION-HEADER-END")>>

to:

##<<Include(IRC, 
,from="^##TAG:TRANSLATION-HEADER-START",to="^##TAG:TRANSLATION-HEADER-END")>>


The point is not to include something from the template. The whole point 
is to make the translation header in each page easy to include in the 
translated pages, so when new languages are added to the header in the 
English master page, they are automatically added to all translated 
pages that have an included header instead of their own header. In the 
past as a translator you would have to subscribe to the English page and 
then manually add all new languages to your translated page when they 
became available.

The only problem I see is having a fixed name page in the 
DefaultTemplate page. One solution (at least it is for me, as you can 
see in my memo here 
(https://wiki.debian.org/BeatriceTorracca#Make_translation_header_always_up_to_date) 
  would be  to have this in the Template:

##<<Include(<PAGENAME>, 
,from="^##TAG:TRANSLATION-HEADER-START",to="^##TAG:TRANSLATION-HEADER-END")>>

the fact that <PAGENAME> doesn't exist would not pose any problem in the 
English master page since that line is commented.
Any translator who knows how to include the header, and who takes the 
manual choice to include it, would get a big RED warning for a missing 
reference (I know... I have been there more times than I can count) 
either when doing a preview (we all make a preview, right?) or when they 
save the page. It would be right at the top and impossible to miss.

> However! That would break any pages that are currently using the Include 
> from DefaultTemplate. I don't know how many of such pages there are, or 
> how to count them. The missing step (2) above would be to update them to 
> reference the newly created page containing the translation header.

I don't think any page actually Includes anything from the 
DefaultTemplate. A lot of translated pages include from their English 
master page (not only that, sometimes, but rarely, even long tables or 
long lists of packages...)

> The reason I'm looking at this at all is I would like to add a link to 
> "/Discussion" into the header, to have it present on most pages 
> automatically (I've seen this done by-hand on one page or other but I 
> can't find it now)

As I was saying, since the translated pages include the header from the 
English master page, whatever you want to put in there would be included 
in the translated pages. There is no problem having a /Discussion part. 
It would be included in translations too (I think there are some pages 
which have it).
Whatever is between the start and end TAGS in the master page would be 
included in the translated pages.

Look at this page for example: https://wiki.debian.org/it/DHCP_Client

There is a Discussion section in the header, there is the comment for 
translators and there are the translation header is between start and 
end tags, and the Italian translated page includes it with no problem. 
(In this particular page only the Italian translation includes it, but 
it is a common practice at the very least with many fr and pt_BR pages 
too for what I can remember).

I am not sure if this is right/advisable/correct, but this is, in my 
experience, how that Include is used by translators.

And again I am not sure I understood correctly.

Have a good day,

beatrice



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