Re: Moderering av user forums...
Rickard B Hansson <[email protected]> Fri, 27 May 2022 11:44:38 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.linux.debian.user.swedish |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CACBH2u58BG9kfZ+C3RRqzE-2vXrfGF-xNvvv0xAsYnRpST9Z7A@mail.gmail.com> |
--000000000000cc1bcd05dffb29c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hej! Den fre 27 maj 2022 kl 11:02 skrev Simon Hoffmann < [email protected]>: Tack f=C3=B6r snabbt och fylligt svar. F=C3=B6ljdfr=C3=A5ga: =C3=84r verkligen ett onlineforum "An online content-sharing service provid= er"? =C3=84r verkligen ett supportm=C3=B6te f=C3=B6r linux att anse som "An onli= ne content-sharing service provider"? Om nu servren st=C3=A5r i Tyskland, =C3=A4r det allts=C3=A5 tysk nationell = till=C3=A4mpning som g=C3=A4ller? Hur blir det med publik =C3=A5tkomst till denna lista, p=C3=A5 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user-swedish and all other debian lists under lists.debian.org. De m=C3=A5ste v=C3=A4l falla under smma best=C3=A4m= else? Kan ens mejlinglista vara kvar? Skall man kanske flytta server utanf=C3=B6r EU? // Med v=C3=A4nliga h=C3=A4lsningar rbh Rickard B Hansson Rusfors 22 921 91 Lycksele tel 070-30 90 143 Den fre 27 maj 2022 kl 11:02 skrev Simon Hoffmann < [email protected]>: > On Fri 27 May 07:21, Hund wrote: > > On 26 May 2022 23:26:53 CEST, Rickard B Hansson < > [email protected]> wrote: > > >Hej! > > > > > >Jag funderar p=C3=A5 nedanst=C3=A5ende text fr=C3=A5n ett linuxforum: > > > > > >> under new EU regulations re. social media platforms including forums= , > you > > >> need basically staff and schedules or a 100% nonpublic forum. [...] > > > > > > > > > > > >> Consider the following: everybody wants to go on vacation. what > happens > > >> with the forum? The only possible answer to that is: it gets shut > down if > > >> there's nobody on schedule, because how else would you guarantee the > > >> presence of a volunteer mod? You can't, and that would already be a > > >> violation of the responsibilities that fall upon operators of > forums... > > >> > > > > > >GDPR <https://gdpr.eu/what-is-gdpr/> och Digital Service Act > > >< > https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/digital-services-act-pa= ckage > > > > >n=C3=A4mndes. > > >men jag kan inte hitta ovanst=C3=A5ende scenario d=C3=A4r. > > >N=C3=A5gom som vet? =C3=84r slutet f=C3=B6r alla sm=C3=A5 n=C3=A4tforu= m n=C3=A4ra nu, eller =C3=A4r > > >ovanst=C3=A5ende en feltolkning? > > > > > > > > >// Med v=C3=A4nliga h=C3=A4lsningar rbh > > > > > >Rickard B Hansson > > > > Det l=C3=A5ter bef=C3=A4ngt. Varf=C3=B6r skulle ett forum beh=C3=B6va h= a en ansvarig > n=C3=A4rvarande dygnet runt, n=C3=A4r ingen annan hemsida beh=C3=B6ver de= t? > > Det =C3=A4r enkelt. Din hemsida eller Debians hemsida =C3=A4r inte =C3=A4= r bara > "read-only". Hela > v=C3=A4rlden kan inte skriva content p=C3=A5 den. Men p=C3=A5 ett =C3=B6p= pen forum kan vem som > helst > skapa ett konto och skriva ngt. > > Men det har faktiskt ingenting att g=C3=B6ra med EU-GDPR, men med "EU-Cop= yright > directive". > > Let me switch to english where i can articulate myself better :) > > In 2019 the EC/parliament passed a new directive "on copyright and relate= d > rights in > the Digital Single Market". (link: > http://data.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/790/oj) > > The most relevant part is Article 17. I may quote > > "An online content-sharing service provider shall therefore obtain an > authorisation from the rightholders referred to in > Article 3(1) and (2) of Directive 2001/29/EC, for instance by concluding = a > licensing agreement, in order to communicate > to the public or make available to the public works or other subject > matter." > > "If no authorisation is granted, online content-sharing service providers > shall be liable for unauthorised acts of > communication to the public, including making available to the public, of > copyright-protected works and other subject > matter, unless the service providers demonstrate that they have: > (a) made best efforts to obtain an authorisation, and > (b) made, in accordance with high industry standards of professional > diligence, best efforts to ensure the unavailability > of specific works and other subject matter for which the rightholders hav= e > provided the service providers with the > relevant and necessary information; and in any event > (c) acted expeditiously, upon receiving a sufficiently substantiated > notice from the rightholders, to disable access to, or > to remove from their websites, the notified works or other subject matter= , > and made best efforts to prevent their > future uploads in accordance with point (b)." > > > This means that you need to obtain a licence for every copyright protecte= d > text/image/video/whatever that is posted on your side. You need to > negotiate the > licence *before* uploading the copyrighted material. If you cannot obtain > a licence, > then you as the operator of the platform must ensure that no material > whatsoever, > that violates valid copyright, is posted on your side. To do this you mus= t > have > automatic content detection ("content filters") and/or must have a > procedure where > any arbitrary person may flag some content as copyright protected so that > you can > remove this content in a timely manner, and prevent this content from > being uploaded > again (hello again content filters). > > This is basically impossible unless you are a very large company who can > spend > millions on automated content filters and staff to review posts. > If you would strictly adhere to the regulation, each new post after the > regulation > came into effect should have been hold for moderation and be manually > checked for > copyright violations, as no automatic content filter can distinguish > between fair use > policies for eg satire and actual violation of copyright. Furthermore, al= l > posts > submitted to your website prior to the regulation becoming active should > also be > reviewed, as you are also responsible for posts in the past. > > Many experts have stated that the directive in this current form destroys > all hobby > projects and means a deep cut into freedom of speech, as automated conten= t > filters > need to be set very strictly and thus there will be lots of false > positives (fair use > policy for satire/art etc). On huge platforms, you cannot review all post= s > blocked > from the automatic content filter, so you rather block more and prohibit > freedom of > speech, where there is no fine, then block less and risk fines for > violating > copyright. > > Sadly, the german politician and member of the EP Axel Voss, who was the > driving > force behind the directive, did not care at all what the experts sad, and > commented > on the huge protests and demonstrations we had in germany that "they are > just some > teens who were fed some wrong narrative from big companies who dont want > to be held > accountable". > Believe me, I am really not proud of our exports to the EP. > > This directive was passed in 2019, and came into effect as national law 2 > years > later, whereas each member of the EU had to draft their own law. So the > actual > swedish implementation might be a little different from the implementatio= n > in other > EU contries, which is why i leave it as a task for the reader to look up > their actual > binding version of this directive and figure out what is allowed and what > it not in > their country :) > > > Med h=C3=A4lsningar fr=C3=A5n Tyskland > > Simon > > --000000000000cc1bcd05dffb29c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon= t-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hej!<br>Den fre 27 maj 2022 kl= 11:02 skrev Simon Hoffmann <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= .net">[email protected]</a>>:<br><br></div><div class=3D"gma= il_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Tack f= =C3=B6r snabbt och fylligt svar.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st= yle=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">F=C3=B6ljdfr=C3=A5ga= :<br>=C3=84r verkligen ett onlineforum "An online content-sharing serv= ice provider"?<br>=C3=84r verkligen ett supportm=C3=B6te f=C3=B6r linu= x att anse som "An online content-sharing service provider"?<br>O= m nu servren st=C3=A5r i Tyskland, =C3=A4r det allts=C3=A5 tysk nationell t= ill=C3=A4mpning som g=C3=A4ller?<br><br>Hur blir det med publik =C3=A5tkoms= t till denna lista, p=C3=A5=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.debian.org/debian= -user-swedish">https://lists.debian.org/debian-user-swedish</a> and all oth= er debian lists under <a href=3D"http://lists.debian.org">lists.debian.org<= /a>. De m=C3=A5ste v=C3=A4l falla under smma best=C3=A4melse? Kan ens mejli= nglista vara kvar?<br><br>Skall man kanske flytta server utanf=C3=B6r EU?<b= r><br><br></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><d= iv dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial;font-siz= e:small;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spa= cing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf= orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,2= 55)"><div><div><div><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">// Med v=C3=A4nliga = h=C3=A4lsningar rbh<br></font></div><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif"><br>= Rickard B Hansson<br></font></div><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">Rusfor= s 22<br></font></div><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">921 91 Lycksele<br>= </font></div><font style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small;font-style:= normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-he= ight:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac= e:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" face=3D"verdan= a, sans-serif">tel 070-30 90 143</font><br><br></div></div></div><br></div>= <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"><span = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:s= mall"></span>Den fre 27 maj 2022 kl 11:02 skrev Simon Hoffmann <<a href= =3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= onhoffmann.net</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D= "margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le= ft:1ex">On Fri 27 May 07:21, Hund wrote:<br> > On 26 May 2022 23:26:53 CEST, Rickard B Hansson <<a href=3D"mailto:= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]<= /a>> wrote:<br> > >Hej!<br> > ><br> > >Jag funderar p=C3=A5 nedanst=C3=A5ende text fr=C3=A5n ett linuxfor= um:<br> > ><br> > >> under new EU regulations re. social media platforms including= forums, you<br> > >> need basically staff and schedules or a 100% nonpublic forum.= [...]<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > >> Consider the following: everybody wants to go on vacation. wh= at happens<br> > >> with the forum? The only possible answer to that is: it gets = shut down if<br> > >> there's nobody on schedule, because how else would you gu= arantee the<br> > >> presence of a volunteer mod? You can't, and that would al= ready be a<br> > >> violation of the responsibilities that fall upon operators of= forums...<br> > >><br> > ><br> > >GDPR <<a href=3D"https://gdpr.eu/what-is-gdpr/" rel=3D"noreferr= er" target=3D"_blank">https://gdpr.eu/what-is-gdpr/</a>> och Digital Ser= vice Act<br> > ><<a href=3D"https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/d= igital-services-act-package" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://d= igital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/digital-services-act-package</a>&g= t;<br> > >n=C3=A4mndes.<br> > >men jag kan inte hitta ovanst=C3=A5ende scenario d=C3=A4r.<br> > >N=C3=A5gom som vet? =C3=84r slutet f=C3=B6r alla sm=C3=A5 n=C3=A4t= forum n=C3=A4ra nu, eller =C3=A4r<br> > >ovanst=C3=A5ende en feltolkning?<br> > ><br> > ><br> > >// Med v=C3=A4nliga h=C3=A4lsningar rbh<br> > ><br> > >Rickard B Hansson<br> > <br> > Det l=C3=A5ter bef=C3=A4ngt. Varf=C3=B6r skulle ett forum beh=C3=B6va = ha en ansvarig n=C3=A4rvarande dygnet runt, n=C3=A4r ingen annan hemsida be= h=C3=B6ver det?<br> <br> Det =C3=A4r enkelt. Din hemsida eller Debians hemsida =C3=A4r inte =C3=A4r = bara "read-only". Hela<br> v=C3=A4rlden kan inte skriva content p=C3=A5 den. Men p=C3=A5 ett =C3=B6ppe= n forum kan vem som helst<br> skapa ett konto och skriva ngt. <br> <br> Men det har faktiskt ingenting att g=C3=B6ra med EU-GDPR, men med "EU-= Copyright directive".<br> <br> Let me switch to english where i can articulate myself better :)<br> <br> In 2019 the EC/parliament passed a new directive "on copyright and rel= ated rights in<br> the Digital Single Market". (link: <a href=3D"http://data.europa.eu/el= i/dir/2019/790/oj" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://data.europa.= eu/eli/dir/2019/790/oj</a>)<br> <br> The most relevant part is Article 17. I may quote<br> <br> "<span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif= ;font-size:small"></span>An online content-sharing service provider shall t= herefore obtain an authorisation from the rightholders referred to in<br> Article 3(1) and (2) of Directive 2001/29/EC, for instance by concluding a = licensing agreement, in order to communicate<br> to the public or make available to the public works or other subject matter= ."<br> <br> "If no authorisation is granted, online content-sharing service provid= ers shall be liable for unauthorised acts of<br> communication to the public, including making available to the public, of c= opyright-protected works and other subject<br> matter, unless the service providers demonstrate that they have:<br> (a) made best efforts to obtain an authorisation, and<br> (b) made, in accordance with high industry standards of professional dilige= nce, best efforts to ensure the unavailability<br> of specific works and other subject matter for which the rightholders have = provided the service providers with the<br> relevant and necessary information; and in any event<br> (c) acted expeditiously, upon receiving a sufficiently substantiated notice= from the rightholders, to disable access to, or<br> to remove from their websites, the notified works or other subject matter, = and made best efforts to prevent their<br> future uploads in accordance with point (b)."<br> <br> <br> This means that you need to obtain a licence for every copyright protected<= br> text/image/video/whatever that is posted on your side. You need to negotiat= e the<br> licence *before* uploading the copyrighted material. If you cannot obtain a= licence,<br> then you as the operator of the platform must ensure that no material whats= oever,<br> that violates valid copyright, is posted on your side. To do this you must = have<br> automatic content detection ("content filters") and/or must have = a procedure where<br> any arbitrary person may flag some content as copyright protected so that y= ou can<br> remove this content in a timely manner, and prevent this content from being= uploaded<br> again (hello again content filters).<br> <br> This is basically impossible unless you are a very large company who can sp= end<br> millions on automated content filters and staff to review posts.<br> If you would strictly adhere to the regulation, each new post after the reg= ulation<br> came into effect should have been hold for moderation and be manually check= ed for<br> copyright violations, as no automatic content filter can distinguish betwee= n fair use<br> policies for eg satire and actual violation of copyright. Furthermore, all = posts<br> submitted to your website prior to the regulation becoming active should al= so be<br> reviewed, as you are also responsible for posts in the past. <br> <br> Many experts have stated that the directive in this current form destroys a= ll hobby<br> projects and means a deep cut into freedom of speech, as automated content = filters<br> need to be set very strictly and thus there will be lots of false positives= (fair use<br> policy for satire/art etc). On huge platforms, you cannot review all posts = blocked<br> from the automatic content filter, so you rather block more and prohibit fr= eedom of<br> speech, where there is no fine, then block less and risk fines for violatin= g<br> copyright. <br> <br> Sadly, the german politician and member of the EP Axel Voss, who was the dr= iving<br> force behind the directive, did not care at all what the experts sad, and c= ommented<br> on the huge protests and demonstrations we had in germany that "they a= re just some<br> teens who were fed some wrong narrative from big companies who dont want to= be held<br> accountable". <br> Believe me, I am really not proud of our exports to the EP.<br> <br> This directive was passed in 2019, and came into effect as national law 2 y= ears<br> later, whereas each member of the EU had to draft their own law. So the act= ual<br> swedish implementation might be a little different from the implementation = in other<br> EU contries, which is why i leave it as a task for the reader to look up th= eir actual<br> binding version of this directive and figure out what is allowed and what i= t not in<br> their country :)<br> <br> <br> Med h=C3=A4lsningar fr=C3=A5n Tyskland<br> <br> Simon<br> <br> </blockquote></div> </div> --000000000000cc1bcd05dffb29c8--