Re: How about a fork of Jessie without systemd?

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 12:30:52PM +0000, D. Joe wrote:
> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 11:37:35PM -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 11:10:34PM -0700, Ed Carp wrote:
> > > The problem I have with this entire discussion is that Linux has
> > > always stood for choice.
> > 
> > Never been true, sorry:
> > 	http://www.islinuxaboutchoice.com/
> 
> Quite right. Linux is just a kernel. It isn't about choice. 

This gets counted as a bunch of euphorism tossed about by tech people
that don't mean anything when dissect them.

Linux is a kernel and the growth of Linux based operating systems has always
been about choice, and freedom to chose.

You can't just separate the sociological importance of something from its technical
merits and properties.  This is not to imply that it has been ONLY about choice, but
freedom of choice, and PERSONAL CONTROL have been the driving forces of the OS since
its inception.  To deny that just makes you sound like a mindless hack.

It is only relatively recently that big business has run roughshot of the end user/hacker
driven opportunity that Linux and Linux culture has represented.  And now it is spread.  LUGs
have driven up and Systemd and Android both represent the same cooperate imperative.  Gone are
the volumes of useful HOWTOs and FAQs that came with every distro.  Now we are facing an increasingly
top down hierarchy with no ear to the end user.

Imagine this.  You guys actually passed off to a bunch of stupid kids that shell scripting
is inherently bad, and even unpredictable, and instead shell scripts should be replaced by
bright shiny incomprehensible binary that sits in the middle of everything like a cop, telling 
you what you are allowed and what you are not allowed to do.  I'm frankly flabbergasted.  

The arrogance is beyond belief.  And taking advantage of the uninformed with misinformation 
with the use of  FUD is a tactic that is hard to fathom.  One can hardly believe that they are
actually listening to people from the Linux community.

This is a mindset of a group of people who actually believe that it is common for Linux users
to be running containers and that is healthy to have multiple instances of daemons running 
simultaneously (defeating the whole purpose of a daemon).


> So glad to see
> we're keeping it real, here.
> 

What is REAL.  Real is that monday morning you run an update and find that your entire OS has
been replaced with a different one.  Boy that can really make for a bad week.


> *Computing* is fundamentally about choice, though: Read a bit, choose
> whether and which bit to write.  Repeat...until the entire tapestry of our
> increasingly computing-controlled world has been woven.
> 
> The extent to which Linux is about computing, now, that's the tricky
> question.
> 
> Maybe it's about joining the effort to sell a fantasy, in which a service or
> appliance does exactly and only what we want, when we want it, how we want
> it, pay no attention to the Turing machine behind the curtain. (Who "we"
> are also left as an exercise for the reader.)
> 

Right a thesis because this is gibberish.  The fact that it is a Turing machine, and 
I'm not certain that is even the case any longer in the classical sense, has nothing
to do with individual control of a system.  Individual control is a MUST.  This is not
supposed to be slaveware.  Having control of your OS is a bit like having control of
your bladder.  When you lose control the consequences are rather nasty.


> We must also ask ourselves these fundamental and obviously intrinsically
> interlinked questions: "Do you ... hate handicap people?  Do you hate
> people who do not speak English?  Do you only care about your own use-case
> for GDM?"
> 

I don't work for a cooperate entity and I don't need to ask this at all, not that it
has any direct relationship to systemd.

>   https://youtu.be/ZTdUmlGxVo0?t=1379
> 
> But I see we've already been drawing from that question pool, so, carry on.
> 
> -- 
> Joe   On ceding power to tech companies: http://xkcd.com/1118/
> man screen | grep -A1 weird
>   A weird imagination is most useful to gain full advantage of
>   all the features.
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