Re: gnokii-0.6.13-1.fc5.rf incompatible with Fedora Extras

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006, Rex Dieter wrote:

> Dag Wieers wrote:
> > On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Rex Dieter wrote:
> 
> >> Besides, what's the point of duplicating Extras' pkgs, *especially* if
> >> they're incompatible?
> > 
> > I did not see this message earlier. But the answer should be quite obvious
> > and I find the question a bit offensive.
> 
> No, not obvious, and my intent certainly was not to offend.  In my
> experience, when Extras' picks up a package I've had to maintain otherwise,
> I usually think "yay, one less thing *I* have to do", but that's just me. 
> If I see problems with Extras' packaging, I report it to the maintainers in
> question.

That doesn't help in any way. Fedora packages are often designed to only 
work on Fedora. There is no policy for RHEL packages (it may be there, but 
is insufficient by our standards). I've brought it up 3 years ago, there 
was no interest. What's more, I was practically told to shut up. The sheer 
noise on the list was killing any productivity and it was showing in my 
repository.

Joining Fedora practically meant to stop supporting my users. And I have a 
fulltime job and responsibilities outside packaging. Time is not on my 
side and Fedora is a time-sucker. Even reading up on the lists.

 
> > I have been packaging gnokii before Fedora Extras existed. Fedora Extras 
> > introduced this packaged years after I was providing a package, and
> > instead of looking what existed already and/or discussing changes they
> > made they choose to make it incompatible with my version
> 
> Nobody "chose" to make incompatibilities, and it's not really
> anyone's "fault".  The fact is you distribute 0.6.13, and Extras does
> 0.6.12, and apparently there was a soname jump in there.  That's it.

It's not about gnokii alone. It's about Fedora Extras attitude. Back when 
it didn't have a repository and there were existing repositories (we 
already had up to 1800 packages when Fedora Extras slowly started) there 
was this attitude that there is no world outside Fedora Extras.

And that still continues today. The fact that Yum can't handle slight 
problems caused by repository mixing is the result of the mono-culture.

 
> > We were even packaging it for Fedora Core 1 and 2 before it entered Fedora
> > Extras.
> 
> That you packaged it first, frankly, doesn't matter all that much.  Extras
> is free for and usable by *all* Fedora users and is a true community effort
> that shares a common infrastructure.  I don't think the same be said of
> rpmforge... (though please correct me if I'm wrong).

Fedora Extras attitude problems still remain. A good policy would have 
been to check what was available before starting from afresh and 
communicate with existing repositories. At least the existing repositories 
should have earned some respect from Red Hat's new community, it was 
driving the community before Fedora. But the archives were very hostile to 
criticism and there was a clear powerplay.

Superior because being part of Fedora Extras.


> > ... Extras criticisms snipped ...
> 
> To be honest, I too saw serious shortcomings in how Extras was run and
> worked.  I chose to get involved to elicit positive change, and I encourage
> you (and everyone else) to do the same if you still feel Fedora/Extras
> doesn't float your boat.  IMO, it's a much better alternative than taking a
> Cartman "screw you guys... I'm going home" approach.

Nice for you Rex. At least you have the time to commit to Fedora Extras. 
But that doesn't make you superior. I understand you do not appreciate my 
efforts if they're not part of Fedora, because frankly nothing exists 
outside of Fedora, right ?

I'm heading off to work now. If you have the extra time to spend on Fedora 
Extras and you feel ok, all the best to you. I don't have the time, I have 
a fulltime job (not academic) and responsibilities outside work and I 
can't commit to Fedora Extras because it would make me less useful.

And I'm sure some people are pleased with that because they do not run 
Fedora.

PS If you think I'm totally against Fedora Extras, I'm not. It has done a 
lot of good stuff too. But criticism is what it is and if you can't take 
that without the icing, that's sad.

At least you could have said it was unfortunate that inconsistencies are 
introduced within Fedora Extras that break things outside Fedora Extras. 
And as a steering comitee member you could have offered solutions or have 
brought it up on a meeting. But you chose to ignore it and I don't have 
your powers to find a solution that doesn't force me to join Fedora 
Extras and be sucked away.

Have a good day.
--   dag wieers,  [email protected],  http://dag.wieers.com/   --
[all I want is a warm bed and a kind word and unlimited power]