Re: [OM Cooker] Are we still doing this moderation? Really?
Per Øyvind Karlsen <[email protected]> Thu, 1 Aug 2013 01:19:21 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.linux.mandrake.cooker.devel,gmane.linux.openmandriva.cooker.devel |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CA+0WU1R=OSxC+uErLT8GbJ9UmTH+kY-n=XXdtnBnebZKBwtc0g@mail.gmail.com> |
--bcaec53d5e07a2a97a04e2d6f446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2013/7/31 Jochen Sch=F6nfelder <[email protected]> > Ahoi! > > think i just should provide some insights about this, since some things a= re > easier as they seem. > > On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 01:22:29 +0200 > "Johnny A. Solbu" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > This mail is something I've been wanting to do a few times, but never d= id > > because I didn't se much point. But now I feel a need to say something. > This > > will be my only input in the so called =ABAssosiation/OMA/OMDV vs POK= =BB > noise. > > It is Not my intention or meaning to restart any heated debate or > stiring up > > any old wounds. But recent events on this list regarding when certain > posts > > are comming in leads me to a need to say something. > I can understand this. Thanks a lot for not wanting to start this again. > So I > also will try to not let this get into another heated debate. Hope I don'= t > fail :) > > > > Isn't it time that Per =D8yvind be removed from moderation? If he start= s to > > =ABmisbehave=BB or whatnot he can always be added to the moderation lis= t > again. > Per is moderated for stating that he does not intend to follow some > guidelines > we created and discussed in TC/irc after receiving feedback from several > people > who were annoyed by the Noise and tone of the ML and irc. > Lemme try see if I get you correctly... * I was initially moderated on this list for reasons given by the association council * the list is no longer moderated by the association, which no longer has any special say in it * I am now moderated on this list based on your decission * Your decission to moderate me isn't based on anything I've done, but rather that I disagree with some guidelines Is this correct? > > These could be found here: > http://wiki.openmandriva.org/en/Cooker#Communication_guidelines What we last debated this on IRC I told you that the following "rule" wasn't acceptable: "the topic is technical development of OMV, nothing else" Considering that the cooker mailing list has been the project's general purpose mailing list for all these years without ever having had any need of moderation, I don't find it acceptable that people now comes up with new rules to constrain the freedom & activity on the list. There's so many issues with this, that I really don't know where to begin if I were to fully cover this one, but I'll try keep it short.. Some people seem to interpret the rule above as that we may discuss technical development only, where discussions revolving around any political issues, conflicts and what not may not be discussed, regardless of their influence on development. What's wrong with this is too obvious for me to even bother comment on... > > We took over the list with another one on moderated. We asked him if he > could > agree with this, which he did, so he was removed from moderation. > > Since then we learned that we differ on some things written there, and fo= r > sure > it might be idealistic and we all will break these guidelines from time t= o > time, which isn't fine but realistic. And no problem as long as we share > the > same vision and calm down after a while. > It's also true that communication is the most basic way of misunderstandi= ng > which will/might also lead to errors on all sides. > > It's just that with opposing these guidelines and stating to not intendin= g > to follow them, I do not really see a point in behave otherwise. > You don't see the effects from this behaviours of yours as points worth considering? > And it's not that we're enforcing that very hard, we just try to solve > conflicts. > The conflict that caused a lot of noise and tension on cooker list was caused by meddling from the association council, I don't see you solving anything related to that conflict, rather the opposite.. > > > It's hard to follow some of the threads when all his posts are comming > long > > after replies to his moderated posts comes in. Leading me to ignore the > > threads all together, because I can't follow it. > I'm very sorry for that. Part comes from old heated threats getting warme= d > up > again, but during the last week most of it came due to bero having bad > connectivity and me not having that much time during daylight hours. > bero's connectivity problems must obviously be quite chronic then.. > > This years turn of events that resulted in one of the major contributor= s > > beeing censored/moderated, is a major reason that I still haven't > restarted > > packaging for either OpenMandriva or Moondrake. Somethimes I'm tempted = to > > leave both OMV and Moondrake and concentrate my packaging on Mageia, an= d > I > > don't think I'm alone in thinking of leaving because of this conflict. > The > > continuing of the moderation is part of the conflict. > We're in trouble here without a perfect solution. People are wanting to > leave > because of either way. So moderation has been a solution to get some peop= le > back in, while others see it as opposing the spirit of total freedom. > We've never had any use for moderation in the past and has always relied on the considerably larger amount of freedom given to developers that is to be creditted for that we've still been able to produce a decent distribution despite only having a fragment of developers compared to other competing projects. Commenting on all the things that's wrong with this solution of yours is something I consider rather redundant, is there actually anyone who's able to make any sober arguments in support of this solution? Just as we didn't need the association to control the project, we don't need anyone to control our communication. > > > I also need to say that, looking into this from an outsiders > perspective: I > > don't know who's right and who's wrong. I don't know if Per =D8yvind, T= he > > assosiation or another party is the troublemaker. I really do not care > who's > > fault it is that things became as they are. > I can understand your point and started from there. I however don't have > the > chance to totally take me out of the conflict. > I saw things as mostly settled with Per leading moondrake and also > developing/patching some software true to the mandrake roots, and oma doi= ng > the groundwork of packaging and bug-fixing as well as other core stuff fo= r > openmandriva. > I'm being forced to fork the project into a separate one, having to find my own ways around to even be able to communicate with the other people involved with the project, do you really think that I'm happy with this? > I also think that there should be a place for everyone now. Contributing > to the > packages will help omv as well as moondrake, contributing to moondrake wi= ll > help moondrake and maybe others using software from there, contributing t= o > the > drakxtools/* might help all of us, including mageia. > This is just dumb. Me doing my development elsewhere and having to keep track of all changes everywhere and vice versa without any coordination, why do you think this is any good? The lack of leadership and progress for the past months certainly doesn't hold up as all that great arguments in favor of this.. > It's just that I don't see us going back to where we were several months > ago > since then it has often been quite lonely :) > No idea what you mean by this.. -- Regards, Per =D8yvind --bcaec53d5e07a2a97a04e2d6f446 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2013/7/31 Jochen Sch=F6nfelder <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:aris= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span><br><div cla= ss=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 = .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Ahoi!<br> <br> think i just should provide some insights about this, since some things are= <br> easier as they seem.<br> <br> On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 01:22:29 +0200<br> <div class=3D"im">"Johnny A. Solbu" <<a href=3D"mailto:cooker@= solbu.net">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> <br> </div><div class=3D"im">> This mail is something I've been wanting t= o do a few times, but never did<br> > because I didn't se much point. But now I feel a need to say somet= hing. This<br> > will be my only input in the so called =ABAssosiation/OMA/OMDV vs POK= =BB noise.<br> > It is Not my intention or meaning to restart any heated debate or stir= ing up<br> > any old wounds. But recent events on this list regarding when certain = posts<br> > are comming in leads me to a need to say something.<br> </div>I can understand this. Thanks a lot for not wanting to start this aga= in. So I<br> also will try to not let this get into another heated debate. Hope I don= 9;t<br> fail :)<br> <div class=3D"im"><br> <br> > Isn't it time that Per =D8yvind be removed from moderation? If he = starts to<br> > =ABmisbehave=BB or whatnot he can always be added to the moderation li= st again.<br> </div>Per is moderated for stating that he does not intend to follow some g= uidelines<br> we created and discussed in TC/irc after receiving feedback from several pe= ople<br> who were annoyed by the Noise and tone of the ML and irc.<br></blockquote><= div>Lemme try see if I get you correctly...</div><div><br></div><div>* I wa= s initially moderated on this list for reasons given by the association cou= ncil</div> <div>* the list is no longer moderated by the association, which no longer = has any special say in it</div><div>* I am now moderated on this list based= on your decission</div><div>* Your decission to moderate me isn't base= d on anything I've done, but rather that I disagree with some guideline= s</div> <div><br></div><div>Is this correct?</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd= ing-left:1ex"> <br> These could be found here:<br> <a href=3D"http://wiki.openmandriva.org/en/Cooker#Communication_guidelines"= target=3D"_blank">http://wiki.openmandriva.org/en/Cooker#Communication_gui= delines</a></blockquote><div>What we last debated this on IRC I told you th= at the following "rule" wasn't acceptable:</div> <div>"the topic is technical development of OMV, nothing else"</d= iv><div><br></div><div>Considering that the cooker mailing list has been th= e project's general purpose mailing list for all these years without ev= er having had any need of moderation, I don't find it acceptable that p= eople now comes up with new rules to constrain the freedom & activity o= n the list.</div> <div><br></div><div>There's so many issues with this, that I really don= 't know where to begin if I were to fully cover this one, but I'll = try keep it short..</div><div><br></div><div>Some people seem to interpret = the rule above as that we may discuss technical development only, where dis= cussions revolving around any political issues, conflicts and what not may = not be discussed, regardless of their influence on development.</div> <div>What's wrong with this is too obvious for me to even bother commen= t on...</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd= ing-left:1ex"> <br> <br> We took over the list with another one on moderated. We asked him if he cou= ld<br> agree with this, which he did, so he was removed from moderation.<br> <br> Since then we learned that we differ on some things written there, and for = sure<br> it might be idealistic and we all will break these guidelines from time to<= br> time, which isn't fine but realistic. And no problem as long as we shar= e the<br> same vision and calm down after a while.<br> It's also true that communication is the most basic way of misunderstan= ding<br> which will/might also lead to errors on all sides.<br> <br> It's just that with opposing these guidelines and stating to not intend= ing<br> to follow them, I do not really see a point in behave otherwise.<br></block= quote><div>You don't see the effects from this behaviours of yours as p= oints worth considering?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote cla= ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa= dding-left:1ex"> <br> And it's not that we're enforcing that very hard, we just try to so= lve<br> conflicts.<br></blockquote><div>The conflict that caused a lot of noise and= tension on cooker list was caused by meddling from the association council= , I don't see you solving anything related to that conflict, rather the= opposite..</div> <div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;= border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im"><br> > It's hard to follow some of the threads when all his posts are com= ming long<br> > after replies to his moderated posts comes in. Leading me to ignore th= e<br> > threads all together, because I can't follow it.<br> </div>I'm very sorry for that. Part comes from old heated threats getti= ng warmed up<br> again, but during the last week most of it came due to bero having bad<br> connectivity and me not having that much time during daylight hours.<br></b= lockquote><div>bero's connectivity problems must obviously be quite chr= onic then..</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"= margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im"><br> > This years turn of events that resulted in one of the major contributo= rs<br> > beeing censored/moderated, is a major reason that I still haven't = restarted<br> > packaging for either OpenMandriva or Moondrake. Somethimes I'm tem= pted to<br> > leave both OMV and Moondrake and concentrate my packaging on Mageia, a= nd I<br> > don't think I'm alone in thinking of leaving because of this c= onflict. The<br> > continuing of the moderation is part of the conflict.<br> </div>We're in trouble here without a perfect solution. People are want= ing to leave<br> because of either way. So moderation has been a solution to get some people= <br> back in, while others see it as opposing the spirit of total freedom.<br></= blockquote><div>We've never had any use for moderation in the past and = has always relied on the considerably larger amount of freedom given to dev= elopers that is to be creditted for that we've still been able to produ= ce a decent distribution despite only having a fragment of developers compa= red to other competing projects.</div> <div><br></div><div>Commenting on all the things that's wrong with this= solution of yours is something I consider rather redundant, is there actua= lly anyone who's able to make any sober arguments in support of this so= lution?</div> <div><br></div><div>Just as we didn't need the association to control t= he project, we don't need anyone to control our communication.</div><bl= ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #= ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D"im"><br> > I also need to say that, looking into this from an outsiders perspecti= ve: I<br> > don't know who's right and who's wrong. I don't know i= f Per =D8yvind, The<br> > assosiation or another party is the troublemaker. I really do not care= who's<br> > fault it is that things became as they are.<br> </div>I can understand your point and started from there. I however don'= ;t have the<br> chance to totally take me out of the conflict.<br> I saw things as mostly settled with Per leading moondrake and also<br> developing/patching some software true to the mandrake roots, and oma doing= <br> the groundwork of packaging and bug-fixing as well as other core stuff for<= br> openmandriva.<br></blockquote><div>I'm being forced to fork the project= into a separate one, having to find my own ways around to even be able to = communicate with the other people involved with the project, do you really = think that I'm happy with this?</div> <div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex= ;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br> I also think that there should be a place for everyone now. Contributing to= the<br> packages will help omv as well as moondrake, contributing to moondrake will= <br> help moondrake and maybe others using software from there, contributing to = the<br> drakxtools/* might help all of us, including mageia.<br></blockquote><div>T= his is just dumb.</div><div><br></div><div>Me doing my development elsewher= e and having to keep track of all changes everywhere and vice versa without= any coordination, why do you think this is any good?</div> <div><br></div><div>The lack of leadership and progress for the past months= certainly doesn't hold up as all that great arguments in favor of this= ..</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 = 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br> It's just that I don't see us going back to where we were several m= onths ago<br> since then it has often been quite lonely :)<br></blockquote><div>No idea w= hat you mean by this..</div><div><br></div><div>--</div><div>Regards,</div>= <div>Per =D8yvind</div></div> --bcaec53d5e07a2a97a04e2d6f446--