Re: [OM Cooker] Are we still doing this moderation? Really?
Robert Xu <[email protected]> Thu, 1 Aug 2013 11:24:43 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.linux.mandrake.cooker.devel |
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| Message-ID | <CA+K=-FcnTKEyro5Hc_Uv3OBkBJrq0eyJUCpssEkFFv5uG1T2MA__21116.8918096975$1375370697$gmane$org@mail.gmail.com> |
--047d7bdc0cf00c484d04e2e4715e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't be arsed to respond to the debate below... Although I'll reiterate, like I did in a past email - we can debate all we want, but it matters NOTHING if we can't do something about it. Want my proposal? Demoderate people on om-cooker and let's try this all over again. It at least brings an end to the current situation, and that is a worthwhile solution. Arisel: yes, while I'm sure the association is supposed to be the vehicle for coordinating things, they crashed and screwed up on this issue big time. So time to undo and try again. On Aug 1, 2013 10:56 AM, "David Walser" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >________________________________ > > From: devnet <[email protected]> > >To: David Walser <[email protected]> > >Cc: Per =C3=98yvind Karlsen <[email protected]>; [email protected] > >Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 9:27 AM > >Subject: Re: [Cooker] [OM Cooker] Are we still doing this moderation? Really? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 6:57 AM, David Walser <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >On 07/31/2013 11:04 PM, devnet wrote: > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>No, not exactly. You're wasting man power on focusing on things behin= d > >>>you instead of in front of you. Moderated on a list means that your > >>>posts still make it there unless your being an incredible douche bag > >>>toward people. Leave your ego at the door and all your barriers will drop. > >>> > >>>Keep up the douchebaggery and you make that artificial barrier become an > >>>actual one. > >>> > >>Ah, but you're assuming that the people doing the moderation make this distinction perfectly. Unfortunately, humans aren't perfect. > > > > > > > > > >Who cares if they don't? Keep on focusing on the distribution and move forward. Here you are worrying about what other people think of your posts and whether or not they're being fair. Who cares? Keep posting RELEVANT stuff that builds up instead of tears down. People will take notice if you focus on the distribution. If your relevant stuff is filtered, file a formal request...be tactful about it. Work the system that is in place...don't piss and moan about how you don't like the system and how it limits you. > > > Who cares, seriously!? So you don't think restricting the ability of developers to communicate could ever be a problem? You don't think someone unfairly restricting one person's communication because they don't like them or don't agree with them is OK, and is a healthy way to run an open-source project? And who else are you going to file a "formal request" with to change this? Why do you expect that people contribute to an open source project in their own free time and of their own free will would want to put up with such BS? How can you just "focus on the distribution" if your ability to participate is so severely and arbitrarily curtailed? The only thing that's tearing anything down right now is these arbitrary restrictions. > > > >>It looks like to me you have NO barriers if you can just focus on one > >>>thing that everyone should be focusing on...the distribution. What a > >>>novel concept eh? Focusing on the distribution instead of pissing and > >>>moaning about all the injustices that were heaped upon you or > >>>others...or pissing and moaning about a barrier that doesn't exist as > >>>long as you focus on the distribution instead of pissing and moaning. > >>> > >> > Again, you're missing the point. The list moderation is part of it, as communication is a crucial component of effectively collaborating on this type of work. Then there's also the commit access business, where ideally the code for one piece of software lives in one place, and everyone is able to contribute to and benefit from it easily. That not being the case also establishes artificial barriers that make it much harder to focus on the distribution and just work, which is what you want. > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >Dude...I somehow was a developer for a distribution of Linux for THREE YEARS without commit access. Did it slow me down? Yep. Did it matter to me? Nope. I just sent my commits to someone who had access. This barrier will fall to the wayside should you stop looking behind and start focusing on the forward. Drop the ego at the door and let it go. > > > And I participated in Cooker for 9 years without any kind of commit access, but I also wasn't an extraordinarily active developer. I'm not saying it doesn't work for anybody, I'm just saying it is a big problem for a major contributor, especially one who works on more than packages, but also self-hosted code like the installer and related tools. > > > >>Just my 2 cents...but I'm a project manager that gets results and > >>>motivates people to do jobs for some of the largest companies in the > >>>world...what do I know? > >>> > >> > I could be totally off base, but possibly as much as some of the people I've come into contact with at work recently, who think that yelling and berating and insulting and bullying people is the best way to get them to do what you want them to do. Just because they work for a large organization doesn't make them perfect. BTW, when injustices really are committed against people, and then you criticize them for "pissing and moaning" about it, that's also bullying. > >> > > > >Never said I was perfect. I just gave a one liner about who I was because NO ONE outside of the Unity Linux folks know what I do or what I'm capable of...sorry if you thought that I was trying to brag or if you thought it was supposed to intimidate or condescend. That wasn't the goal...it was simply to inform. > > > > > >There you go again with your "injustices". Really guy, let it go. You're too busy looking in the rear view mirror. When you focus on issues that are past, no matter if you're right or wrong, we all lose. You trip others up, you cause stress, you make others feel guilty if you're right or you make others pissed off if you're wrong. It REALLY DOESN'T MATTER. Work on the distribution. Stop the "I was persecuted!!! It's an injustice!!" crap because all it does is distract YOU and distract OTHERS from what is really important...and that is working on the distribution. > > There you go again insisting this is all in the past. It's not! That's why it's still be discussed now. The problem persists at this very moment, and it can't just be "let go" because it is wrong and harmful. I don't know why you want to keep putting words in everyone's mouth, saying they're looking back. I'm saying, let's not look back, let's forget about the past disagreements and ugliness and start over with a clean slate. Let's look forward, and find a solution that will be the best for the project going forward. I'm saying let's be open and respectful. Let's stop treating people like second-class citizens and being condescending and telling them to just stop "pissing and moaning" and just accept a bad situation. This is open source. People will not do that. > > --047d7bdc0cf00c484d04e2e4715e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <p dir=3D"ltr">I can't be arsed to respond to the debate below... Altho= ugh I'll reiterate, like I did in a past email - we can debate all we w= ant, but it matters NOTHING if we can't do something about it.</p> <p dir=3D"ltr">Want my proposal? Demoderate people on om-cooker and let'= ;s try this all over again.</p> <p dir=3D"ltr">It at least brings an end to the current situation, and that= is a worthwhile solution.</p> <p dir=3D"ltr">Arisel: yes, while I'm sure the association is supposed = to be the vehicle for coordinating things, they crashed and screwed up on t= his issue big time. So time to undo and try again.</p> <p dir=3D"ltr">On Aug 1, 2013 10:56 AM, "David Walser" <<a hre= f=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > >________________________________<br> > > From: devnet <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">devn3t@gmail= .com</a>><br> > >To: David Walser <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">luig= [email protected]</a>><br> > >Cc: Per =C3=98yvind Karlsen <<a href=3D"mailto:proyvind@moondra= ke.net">[email protected]</a>>; <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">= [email protected]</a><br> > >Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 9:27 AM<br> > >Subject: Re: [Cooker] [OM Cooker] Are we still doing this moderati= on? Really?<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > >On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 6:57 AM, David Walser <<a href=3D"mailto= :[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> > ><br> > >On 07/31/2013 11:04 PM, devnet wrote:<br> > >><br> > >><br> > >>><br> > >>><br> > >>>No, not exactly. =C2=A0You're wasting man power on foc= using on things behind<br> > >>>you instead of in front of you. =C2=A0Moderated on a list = means that your<br> > >>>posts still make it there unless your being an incredible = douche bag<br> > >>>toward people. =C2=A0Leave your ego at the door and all yo= ur barriers will drop.<br> > >>><br> > >>>Keep up the douchebaggery and you make that artificial bar= rier become an<br> > >>>actual one.<br> > >>><br> > >>Ah, but you're assuming that the people doing the moderati= on make this distinction perfectly. =C2=A0Unfortunately, humans aren't = perfect.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > >Who cares if they don't? =C2=A0Keep on focusing on the distrib= ution and move forward. =C2=A0Here you are worrying about what other people= think of your posts and whether or not they're being fair. =C2=A0Who c= ares? =C2=A0Keep posting RELEVANT stuff that builds up instead of tears dow= n. =C2=A0People will take notice if you focus on the distribution. =C2=A0 I= f your relevant stuff is filtered, file a formal request...be tactful about= it. =C2=A0Work the system that is in place...don't piss and moan about= how you don't like the system and how it limits you.=C2=A0<br> ><br> ><br> > Who cares, seriously!?=C2=A0 So you don't think restricting the ab= ility of developers to communicate could ever be a problem?=C2=A0 You don&#= 39;t think someone unfairly restricting one person's communication beca= use they don't like them or don't agree with them is OK, and is a h= ealthy way to run an open-source project?=C2=A0 And who else are you going = to file a "formal request" with to change this?=C2=A0 Why do you = expect that people contribute to an open source project in their own free t= ime and of their own free will would want to put up with such BS?=C2=A0 How= can you just "focus on the distribution" if your ability to part= icipate is so severely and arbitrarily curtailed?=C2=A0 The only thing that= 's tearing anything down right now is these arbitrary restrictions.<br> ><br> ><br> > >>It looks like to me you have NO barriers if you can just focus= on one<br> > >>>thing that everyone should be focusing on...the distributi= on. =C2=A0What a<br> > >>>novel concept eh? =C2=A0Focusing on the distribution inste= ad of pissing and<br> > >>>moaning about all the injustices that were heaped upon you= or<br> > >>>others...or pissing and moaning about a barrier that doesn= 't exist as<br> > >>>long as you focus on the distribution instead of pissing a= nd moaning.<br> > >>><br> > >><br> > Again, you're missing the point. =C2=A0The list moderation is part= of it, as communication is a crucial component of effectively collaboratin= g on this type of work. =C2=A0Then there's also the commit access busin= ess, where ideally the code for one piece of software lives in one place, a= nd everyone is able to contribute to and benefit from it easily. =C2=A0That= not being the case also establishes artificial barriers that make it much = harder to focus on the distribution and just work, which is what you want.<= br> > >><br> > >><br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > >Dude...I somehow was a developer for a distribution of Linux for T= HREE YEARS without commit access. =C2=A0Did it slow me down? =C2=A0Yep. =C2= =A0Did it matter to me? =C2=A0Nope. =C2=A0I just sent my commits to someone= who had access. =C2=A0This barrier will fall to the wayside should you sto= p looking behind and start focusing on the forward. =C2=A0Drop the ego at t= he door and let it go.<br> ><br> ><br> > And I participated in Cooker for 9 years without any kind of commit ac= cess, but I also wasn't an extraordinarily active developer.=C2=A0 I= 9;m not saying it doesn't work for anybody, I'm just saying it is a= big problem for a major contributor, especially one who works on more than= packages, but also self-hosted code like the installer and related tools.<= br> ><br> ><br> > >>Just my 2 cents...but I'm a project manager that gets resu= lts and<br> > >>>motivates people to do jobs for some of the largest compan= ies in the<br> > >>>world...what do I know?<br> > >>><br> > >><br> > I could be totally off base, but possibly as much as some of the peopl= e I've come into contact with at work recently, who think that yelling = and berating and insulting and bullying people is the best way to get them = to do what you want them to do. =C2=A0Just because they work for a large or= ganization doesn't make them perfect. =C2=A0BTW, when injustices really= are committed against people, and then you criticize them for "pissin= g and moaning" about it, that's also bullying.<br> > >><br> > ><br> > >Never said I was perfect. =C2=A0I just gave a one liner about who = I was because NO ONE outside of the Unity Linux folks know what I do or wha= t I'm capable of...sorry if you thought that I was trying to brag or if= you thought it was supposed to intimidate or condescend. =C2=A0That wasn&#= 39;t the goal...it was simply to inform.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > >There you go again with your "injustices". =C2=A0Really = guy, let it go. =C2=A0You're too busy looking in the rear view mirror. = =C2=A0When you focus on issues that are past, no matter if you're right= or wrong, we all lose. =C2=A0You trip others up, you cause stress, you mak= e others feel guilty if you're right or you make others pissed off if y= ou're wrong. =C2=A0It REALLY DOESN'T MATTER. =C2=A0Work on the dist= ribution. =C2=A0Stop the "I was persecuted!!! =C2=A0It's an injust= ice!!" crap because all it does is distract YOU and distract OTHERS fr= om what is really important...and that is working on the distribution.<br> ><br> > There you go again insisting this is all in the past.=C2=A0 It's n= ot!=C2=A0 That's why it's still be discussed now.=C2=A0 The problem= persists at this very moment, and it can't just be "let go" = because it is wrong and harmful.=C2=A0 I don't know why you want to kee= p putting words in everyone's mouth, saying they're looking back.= =C2=A0 I'm saying, let's not look back, let's forget about the = past disagreements and ugliness and start over with a clean slate.=C2=A0 Le= t's look forward, and find a solution that will be the best for the pro= ject going forward.=C2=A0 I'm saying let's be open and respectful.= =C2=A0 Let's stop treating people like second-class citizens and being = condescending and telling them to just stop "pissing and moaning"= and just accept a bad situation.=C2=A0 This is open source.=C2=A0 People w= ill not do that.<br> ><br> ><br> </p> --047d7bdc0cf00c484d04e2e4715e--