Re: [OM Cooker] ML moderators required
Per Øyvind Karlsen <[email protected]> Wed, 25 Sep 2013 20:09:13 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.linux.mandrake.cooker.devel,gmane.linux.openmandriva.cooker.devel |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CA+0WU1SVuaWAJKDXDW2-P3ZJeggRTe-JOwZAa_VvQdMajyzJ0Q@mail.gmail.com> |
--001a11c3430296e2c804e739269e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2013/9/24 Rapha=EBl Jadot <[email protected]> > > Le 24/09/2013 17:45, Guilherme Moro a =E9crit : > > HI, > > I do understand the law part, you seem to ignore what my point is. All > countries have similar laws but if I call you a dirt name, no court is > going to consider this like breaking the law, unless there's other things > involved. > I do understand your concerns tho. > So, we reach here a thin line between legal and illegal, but this is not > what I meant, again, I understand the legal treat involved with personal > aggressions, or internet bullying and all this kind of shit, but enforcin= g > this rules, and judging by yourself, on a legal decision that should not = be > made by you at the first place, is so dangerous and can be passive of > punishment much like the same. Of course racism and defamation are easily > spotted sometimes, but not always, and I doubt that you understand the > jurisprudence enough to judge by yourself. > > Sure, this is why it's better to have a team of people. > > Imagine if anyone want to charge someone else with a legal complain, > he would need to PROVE that he is not right, and that the comments are > defamation, it's not just black and white like you are saying. > > Indeed, it's not just black and white, like I'm saying :) > > To exemplify what I'm saying, take another clear and recent example > (and please, try to open your mind and think in the big picture, instead = of > again, going blind in rage), > > You must confuse with someone else, I've never being in rage nor even a > little angry. People knowing me may think I'm apathic even :) > > Per Oyvind was here saying that the council, and specifically some > people, are doing a shitty work (using much dirtier words), those involve= d > can prosecute him based on this defamation law, but how you are going to > prove that he's lying, if it involves a subjective matter, that even a > judge would have problems judging. > > IMHO Per =D8yvind should not be moderated any more on mailing list, it's > unfair, in my own pov, that he's still moderated but the fact is that no > one for now is taking care about moderation and un-moderation process. > About defamation or injure, it's complicated, like we said, this is why > there is this discussion. Some people don't like the fact people are > moderated, other don't like the fact this is not moderated, because you c= an > say something right, but in a wrong way. How to react, Who is right? this > is exactly the discussion that was raised here. > > Who are the moderators to have such a direct response and blame him > guilty, to a extent of actually cutting him off the list? > > It's not clear, atm. This is also why we need to clarify this with as > clear as possible rules, openly discussed, and a real team. > > This kind of disagreements happens all time in mailing list all over > the world in different topics of several communities, and I don't think > that an Open community (with capital O, like we want this to be) is doing > right in blocking people that disagree with ANY kind of topic, or definin= g > what is a aggression, and what is a discussion, this is hardly trolling o= r > FUD, it's just clashing of opinions and points of view. > > It's not easy, this is exactly what you and i say, it's why having a > team of people and clear (as much as possible) rules may help. But people > are people, they can be wrong. > > Can you understand what is my point here now? I'm not disagreeing with > clear rules, but you need to be very clear on how to apply this, and > disagreements are not the same as infringing laws, so I can, I beg you, > think this through very calmly, and create the clear distinction between > what is law enforcement, and what is conduct enforcing, because the way y= ou > are doing this now, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, is not really clear. > > Well, if you mean "me" by "you", it's not my project, but a project from > the association (at least, a project from 5 or 6 people :/ ). And I'm > pretty sure many things are not clear, I de facto agree you, this is why > there need discussions, improvement, clarification fixing etc. > > And here it is where you're clearly wrong and proves yourself as being nothing better than certain managers and investors of the past trying to gain control and own the project. This project is *not* a project of the association nor the property of but the developers behind it, this was even told you by several people ranging from Bruce Precenes to pretty much everyone who attended the emergency meeting in March when everyone was fed up with the association's interference with the project. Did you respect this at all? Not the slightest, in stead you chose to hijack the project to force your name onto it, redefine meritocracy (when you figured out what it actually implied) to something suiting you better in order to claim not only less control and influence than the next guy and those of us who has contributed for ages and actually have real merit to show for, but rather for you to claim as much as possible based on that you handled much of the paperwork of the association and being it's president. Meritocracy has a quite universal meaning and well recognized implications in the context of Free Software, something which only you (and yourself alone, I did see noone else backing you up on, only the exact opposite) refused to acknowledge and accept, but rather chose to proclaim cooker project as dead (which only you yourself made your own decission solely yourself again about), claiming the project now to be a new one where merits no longer is the obvious thing that is recognized by everone and built up over longer periods, but rather something that you will define what is to be recognized as and throw away the already existing and recognized merits of all the others in order for you to be able to come late to the party and pretend that you've actually contributed and made significant achievements in the context of, while the cruel truth is almost the absolute opposite when it comes to the actual project itself. Most people on this list has earned themself considerably more merit than you over the year, but you reject recognizing and acknowledging it for your own selfish reasons. And this isn't insulting to just me, but to everyone else here. The project needs to be supported by the association in order for the developers to be able to keep it alive. What the project does *NOT* need is an association to own and control it, this was one of the major motivations for this association to protect against this. When the project was own by Mandriva, it did at least had competent staff that was hired in based on their expertize, experience and skills, while also there being a focus on having to generate revenues to, preventing things like these to happen because it won't be tolerated by investors who cares mainly about their investment and how to best protect it. This association OTOH is now run by people which in stead of having having much of these qualifications and motivations, cares more about their own agenda and how they want to run and control the project which they don't even contribute any development themself to. Mandriva has gotten a lot of bad reputation, with people being concerned about management, investors etc. over the years, but it doesn't even come close to how much worse threath and destructive this association is to the project.. Wwhen you last questioned whether you should rresign or not, I said that you definitive should, and while you didn't, you didn't even try change your behaviour or listen to others. You really oughta reflect over this, and if you have any integrity and self-insight left, you really should do so rather than just questioning about it without any intent on actually doing so, only faking humblness for sympathy. Have you asked yourself whether the cooker *project* itself has improved or not as a result of your activties and involvement/interference over the last month? For the rest, I think gmoro covered things pretty well (and you might just wanna reflect on and give it a thought of why gmoro no longer wants to be a part of this community anymore...), even although I myself would've probably been a bit more blunt and made some stronger points, but I'll spare everyones' time and aggitation from further discussions leading nowhere... (And for the record, this isn't a personal attack, but rather recollection of the last pariod, from undeniable a biased and not unlkely subjective view). Yeahyeah, some people will get provoked by this post, some hate me, some agree, some fully support it, and possibly generate yet more controversy, but certain things needs to be said, and the overly political correctness cooker has almost always suffered from with little tolerance for critical discussions that are sorely needed, only leaving us running round in circles without true issues ever actually being fixed, it can't possibly hurt more in any way than everything has done lately by my me making such less popular posts... -- Regards, Per =D8yvind --001a11c3430296e2c804e739269e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">2013/9/24 Rapha=EBl Jadot <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span><br><div cla= ss=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu= ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex= "> =20 =20 =20 <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> <br> <div>Le 24/09/2013 17:45, Guilherme Moro a =E9crit=A0:<br> </div><div class=3D"im"> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div> <div> <div> <div>HI,<br> <br> I do understand the law part, you seem to ignore what my point is. All countries have similar laws but if I call you a dirt name, no court is going to consider this like breaking the law, unless there's other things involved.= <br> I do understand your concerns tho.<br> So, we reach here a thin line between legal and illegal, but this is not what I meant, again, I understand the legal treat involved with personal aggressions, or internet bullying and all this kind of shit, but enforcing this rules, and judging by yourself, on a legal decision that should not be made by you at the first place, is so dangerous and can be passive of punishment much like the same. Of course racism and defamation are easily spotted sometimes, but not always, and I doubt that you understand the jurisprudence enough to judge by yourself.<br> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> Sure, this is why it's better to have a team of people.<div class= =3D"im"><br> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div> <div> <div> <div> </div> Imagine if anyone want to charge someone else with a legal complain, he would need to PROVE that he is not right, and that the comments are defamation, it's not just black and white like you are saying.<br> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> Indeed, it's not just black and white, like I'm saying :)<div c= lass=3D"im"><br> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div> <div> <div>To exemplify what I'm saying, take another clear and recent example (and please, try to open your mind and think in the big picture, instead of again, going blind in rage), </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> You must confuse with someone else, I've never being in rage nor even a little angry. People knowing me may think I'm apathic even := )<div class=3D"im"><br> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div> <div> <div>Per Oyvind was here saying that the council, and specifically some people, are doing a shitty work (using much dirtier words), those involved can prosecute him based on this defamation law, but how you are going to prove that he's lying, if it involves a subjective matter= , that even a judge would have problems judging.</div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> IMHO Per =D8yvind should not be moderated any more on mailing list, it's unfair, in my own pov, that he's still moderated but the f= act is that no one for now is taking care about moderation and un-moderation process. About defamation or injure, it's complicated= , like we said, this is why there is this discussion. Some people don't like the fact people are moderated, other don't like the = fact this is not moderated, because you can say something right, but in a wrong way. How to react, Who is right? this is exactly the discussion that was raised here.<div class=3D"im"><br> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div> <div> <div> Who are the moderators to have such a direct response and blame him guilty, to a extent of actually cutting him off the list?<br> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> It's not clear, atm. This is also why we need to clarify this with as clear as possible rules, openly discussed, and a real team.<div clas= s=3D"im"><br> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div> <div> <div> </div> This kind of disagreements happens all time in mailing list all over the world in different topics of several communities, and I don't think that an Open community (with capital O, like we want this to be) is doing right in blocking people that disagree with ANY kind of topic, or defining what is a aggression, and what is a discussion, this is hardly trolling or FUD, it's just clashing of opinions and points of view.<br> <br> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> It's not easy, this is exactly what you and=A0 i say, it's why = having a team of people and clear (as much as possible) rules may help. But people are people, they can be wrong.<div class=3D"im"><br> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div>Can you understand what is my point here now? I'm not disagreeing with clear rules, but you need to be very clear on how to apply this, and disagreements are not the same as infringing laws, so I can, I beg you, think this through very calmly, and create the clear distinction between what is law enforcement, and what is conduct enforcing, because the way you are doing this now, FROM=A0 MY POINT OF VIEW, is not really clear.<br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> Well, if you mean "me" by "you", it's not my pr= oject, but a project from the association (at least, a project from 5 or 6 people :/ ). And I'm pretty sure many things are not clear, I de facto agree you= , this is why there need discussions, improvement, clarification fixing etc.<div class=3D"im"><br></div></div></blockquote><div style>An= d here it is where you're clearly wrong and proves yourself as being no= thing better than certain managers and investors of the past =A0trying to g= ain control and own the project.</div> <div style><br></div><div style>This project is *not* a project of the asso= ciation nor the property of but the developers behind it, this was even tol= d you by several people ranging from Bruce Precenes to pretty much everyone= who attended the emergency meeting in March when everyone was fed up with = the association's interference with the project.</div> <div style><br></div><div style>Did you respect this at all? Not the slight= est, in stead you chose to hijack the project to force your name onto it, r= edefine meritocracy (when you figured out what it actually implied) to some= thing suiting you better in order to claim not only less control and influe= nce than the next guy and those of us who has contributed for ages and actu= ally have real merit to show for, but rather for you to claim as much as po= ssible based on that you handled much of the paperwork of the association a= nd being it's president.</div> <div style>Meritocracy has a quite universal meaning and well recognized im= plications in the context of Free Software, something which only you (and y= ourself alone, I did see noone else backing you up on, only the exact oppos= ite) refused to acknowledge and accept, but rather chose to proclaim cooker= project as dead (which only you yourself made your own decission solely yo= urself again about), claiming the project now to be a new one where merits = no longer is the obvious thing that is recognized by everone and built up o= ver longer periods, but rather something that you will define what is to be= recognized as and throw away the already existing and recognized merits of= all the others in order for you to be able to come late to the party and p= retend that you've actually contributed and made significant achievemen= ts in the context of, while the cruel truth is almost the absolute opposite= when it comes to the actual project itself.</div> <div style><br></div><div style>Most people on this list has earned themsel= f considerably more merit than you over the year, but you reject recognizin= g and acknowledging it for your own selfish reasons.</div><div style>And th= is isn't insulting to just me, but to everyone else here.</div> <div style><br></div><div style>The project needs to be supported by the as= sociation in order for the developers to be able to keep it alive.</div><di= v style>What the project does *NOT* need is an association to own and contr= ol it, this was one of the major motivations for this association to protec= t against this.</div> <div style>When the project was own by Mandriva, it did at least had compet= ent staff that was hired in based on their expertize, experience and skills= , while also there being a focus on having to generate revenues to, prevent= ing things like these to happen because it won't be tolerated by invest= ors who cares mainly about their investment and how to best protect it.</di= v> <div style>This association OTOH is now run by people which in stead of hav= ing having much of these qualifications and motivations, cares more about t= heir own agenda and how they want to run and control the project which they= don't even contribute any development themself to.</div> <div style><br></div><div style>Mandriva has gotten a lot of bad reputation= , with people being concerned about management, investors etc. over the yea= rs, but it doesn't even come close to how much worse threath and destru= ctive this association is to the project..</div> <div style><br></div><div style>Wwhen you last questioned whether you shoul= d rresign or not, I said that you definitive should, and while you didn'= ;t, you didn't even try change your behaviour or listen to others. You = really oughta reflect over this, and if you have any integrity and self-ins= ight left, you really should do so rather than just questioning about it wi= thout any intent on actually doing so, only faking humblness for sympathy.<= /div> <div style>Have you asked yourself whether the cooker *project* itself has = improved or not as a result of your activties and involvement/interference = over the last month?</div><div style><br></div><div style>For the rest, I t= hink gmoro covered things pretty well (and you might just wanna reflect on = and give it a thought of why gmoro no longer wants to be a part of this com= munity anymore...), even although I myself would've probably been a bit= more blunt and made some stronger points, but I'll spare everyones'= ; time and aggitation from further discussions leading nowhere...</div> <div style><br></div><div style>(And for the record, this isn't a perso= nal attack, but rather recollection of the last pariod, from undeniable a b= iased and not unlkely subjective view).</div><div style><br></div><div styl= e> Yeahyeah, some people will get provoked by this post, some hate me, some ag= ree, some fully support it, and possibly generate yet more controversy, but= certain things needs to be said, and the overly political correctness cook= er has almost always suffered from with little tolerance for critical discu= ssions that are sorely needed, only leaving us running round in circles wit= hout true issues ever actually being fixed, it can't possibly hurt more= in any way than everything has done lately by my me making such less popul= ar posts...</div> <div style><br></div><div style>--</div><div style>Regards,</div><div style= >Per =D8yvind</div></div></div></div> --001a11c3430296e2c804e739269e--