RE: [Security Firewall] Florins Firewall

Ok, here are my two bob for Vincent and all the Mandrivites:

You obviously cannot help being rude and defensive (hey it's the IT way) so
why not just drop all this pretext of justification and admit it, you are
selling the product, the product is for sale. It is NOT FREE, It is not for
use by most of us supposed home users, it is for corporations to use for the
betterment of all humankind, if they can afford it.  The End.  Vincent, Put
on your moderator hat and dump the rest of it and let this mailing list calm
down.  The more defensive and nasty you get, the more replies are going to
be generated and and so on ad. Infintitum it's not going to change.

We are obviously not going to convince you we are right and get to keep
using MNF (so just give it up guys).  And I/we are not going to convince
Mandriva that some of us adopted the product because it was available free
and we didn't need the support etc.  If you write to Vincent, he and his
people will just keep sending back nasty, trite, replies.

 I plan to keep running the beta until I can find something else I can
afford for my students and I encourage everyone on the list to do whatever
is best for their organization  (PIX is quite nice if you can afford it).  I
will continue to advise my clients to consider all products I recommend to
them and choose what is best for their operation from my list of firewalls.

Perhaps Florin will build the next great open/free/whatever firewall and
perhaps he will not.  Regardless, it is time for this thread to bid adieu
before it gets noticed by the TSA and we all end up in Guantanamo Bay being
asked questions about our attack on the bandwidth of the States.

Personally, I am going to switch to Microsoft NT 4.0 and just have fun with
the all the script kiddies attacking me.

Aloha

Doug White



-----Original Message-----
From: security-firewall-owner-4qZELD6FgxheH41UXmfQsti2O/[email protected]
[mailto:security-firewall-owner-4qZELD6FgxheH41UXmfQsti2O/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Vincent
Danen
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:46 PM
To: security-firewall-4qZELD6FgxheH41UXmfQsti2O/[email protected]
Subject: Re: [Security Firewall] Florins Firewall


On 3-Aug-05, at 4:25 PM, Repairman wrote:

>> I still don't get it.  Not once was MNF ever to be given away for
>> free.  SNF wasn't, MNF8.2 wasn't, what made everyone think that MNF2
>> was any different.
>>
>
> That's right, it never was "free", but at least I could download  
> it, test & try it and create solutions for my customers (in my  
> case, I've sold 6 (*)copies of MNF), but I've also sold more copies  
> of ClarkConnect because I can do more with it. (* Sold by  
> recommendation, and then I support it. I even have my own mirror of  
> the Mandrake/Mandriva ftp site to do this, and more, with.)

Yeah but... c'mon... this is open source.  How many people actually  
pay for something they can download for free.  I mean, be honest  
here.  10%?  Maybe?  People, we're trying to stick around so we can  
provide this kind of stuff in the future.

If we wanted to go back into bankruptcy protection, I'd heartily  
encourage making it freely available so that only 10% of the people  
using it would pay for it.

Of course, I'm not marketing, sales, or even directly involved with  
MNF at all so I can't speak on the reasons for any decisions.

And frankly, that's not what I came on to discuss.  I just want the  
off-topic discussion moved.  I'm not here to defend Mandriva business  
practices because it seems like everyone already has their mind made  
up and won't listen anyways.

>> We haven't abandoned anything, we haven't done anything sneaky, we
>> haven't robbed you of anything.  We did exactly what we set out to do
>> which was to create an enterprise firewall product.  Nothing has
>> changed on our end.  Your perception of things seems to have changed
>> over time, but I don't understand why.
>
> Yes you did abandon something. The way of doing business that got  
> you back on your feet. AKA The "Microsoft Route". Then robbed us of  
> the fath in a business and it's products.

And what is the definition of "the way of doing business that got you  
back on your feet"?  I like how you toss vague terms like that and  
"the microsoft route" but never actually explain what it *is*.

Since I suspect you *can't* explain it to me, I'll save you the  
bother of trying and tell you I'm no longer really interested in even  
knowing, much less guessing, what you're talking about.

>> Did I miss something?  Was everyone told that MNF2 was supposed to be
>> free when the betas started rolling and then we snatched it away and
>> went back on our word?
>>
>
> No, not free. Just available (as before) for download to see if it  
> works (which there is no proof of, therefore I'm not going to spend  
> hundreds of dollars to find out).

AKA: free for any mooch to download and pay for it if he feels like  
it.  Good grief man... how many people do *you* know would pay for a  
$700 product if they could download it for free?

> But....  daouda-4qZELD6FgxhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Announced on this list that...
>
> "Yes, after discussions with management, we decide to make the iso
> available for contributors, especially those on this list.
> A list of MNF contributors/testers/lurkers will be set up by Florin  
> [if
> he agrees] and a VIP club membership will be given to these
> contributors in order to download the MNF2 iso. Just drop a mail to
> Florin with your name and email in body.
> Florin are you ok with this plan ?"
>
> Which I did send a message to Florin, but nothing has come of it so  
> far. So the only chance that I'll have a copy of MNF2 to test and  
> work with is questionable.

Well, that's because every single person on the bloody list piped up  
and said "me too" as well.  At that point you might as well make the  
ISO generally available to everyone because I don't think there was a  
single subscriber who sat back and said "well, I didn't really do  
much other than read the odd mail on the mailing list so I won't put  
my hand up and wave it around while I jump up and down to get as much  
attention as I can".

Nothing's probably come of it because they need to figure out who  
actually did something to deserve it.

Of course, I can't say that for certain either but considering the  
full week of nothing but "me too" it seems pretty plausible.

-- 
Annvix - Secure Linux Server: http://annvix.org/
"lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import"
{FEE30AD4 : 7F6C A60C 06C2 4811 FA1C  A2BC 2EBC 5E32 FEE3 0AD4}

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