Re: How did people here learn GUIs

Here are some web links ...

>From Ars Technica:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/ubuntus-bash-and-linux-command-line-coming-to-windows-10/

iAnd this PC World article mentions apt-get:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3050473/windows/heres-how-windows-10s-ubuntu-based-bash-shell-will-actually-work.html


And just one more for grins:
http://www.howtogeek.com/249966/how-to-install-and-use-the-linux-bash-shell-on-windows-10/

Christopher Chaltain writes:
> Will apt-get really work in Windows? Adding bash support is a long way from
> adding Debian's packaging system. This would be great if it were true, but
> I'm a bit skeptical.
> 
> On 19/07/16 13:08, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > John, you're correct about most people, but not about most computer
> > professionals, especially not about computer programmers.
> > 
> > My evidence is how Microsoft is now adding bash from Ubuntu to Windows
> > 10.
> > All the programmers I know who use Windows are seriously jazzed about
> > this new upgrade to Windows. Just imagine using apt-get to add some
> > package ton the Windows command line environment.
> > 
> > This has been an interesting thread. I'm looking forward to reading
> > more.
> > 
> > My own personal experience predates accessible Unix shell access. I say
> > Unix, because Linux had not yet been invented. The only way to access a
> > Unix shell in the 1980's was to have an account at some company or
> > university, or to buy monthly access at some service like The Well, or
> > eventually at netcom. Where I lived, that also meant paying for the
> > modem call by the minute, because the calls from San Francisco to the
> > Well, or to Netcom were intra latta calls, and were charged pretty hefty
> > fees.
> > 
> > But, this background is important, I think, because we didn't exactly
> > have command line access at services like Compuserve, the Source, or
> > Delphi Internet services. What we had was a menu of options. Sometimes
> > the menu would be something you could arrow or tab through, sometimes it
> > was just printed on screen and you had to type the command you wanted at
> > the prompt.
> > 
> > How is that like gui desktops? More primitive, yes, but it's object
> > oriented. You select an object and activate it. Then, you do that again
> > on the next screen. So, early gui was no problem from the conceptual
> > point of view, because it was just a menu of options presented in
> > hieroglyphs rather than words. Of course, those hieroglyphs--we learned
> > to call them icons--weren't accessible because we didn't have a way to
> > associate them with words. We had to do some serious advocacy to get the
> > operating environment retrofitted in a way that would allow words to be
> > associated with those icons.
> > 
> > In the early days of gui accessibility several books in braille appeared
> > designed to teach us this graphical environment. I remember a title from
> > the U.K. called "Windows Explained" that came with wonderful graphic
> > representations of various screens on Windows computers. If titles like
> > that aren't available today, somebody should start writing. From the
> > discussion here it's clear to me that a good, conceptual overview of how
> > the gui works, along with some good braille graphics, would likely prove
> > highly valuable. It would be even more valuable if it showed Microsoft,
> > Apple, Chrome and Linux -- but I'm probably dreaming to ask for that
> > much! <grin>
> > 
> > PS: I got my first real cli when Netcom created a pop in San Francisco.
> > The day I hear about that I signed up. I expected to find menus when I
> > logged in, but no, I just got a shell prompt. I was flummoxed. I called
> > for tech support, because the docs they sent in the mail were only in
> > print. The owner of the company was doing his own tech support back
> > then. When he realizaed I was blind, he showed me how to read usenet
> > news groups and man pages. He promissed to help me if I got stuck, but
> > with usenet and man in my skillset, I never had to call him again. This
> > is a true story, but you were all asking about gui, not cli.
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > 
> > John J. Boyer writes:
> > > My experience is that most blind people like a GUI with a screen reader
> > > better than the command line. Those who have teouble with GUIs, like me,
> > > seem to be decidedly in the minority.
> > > 
> > > John
> > > 
> > > On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 12:29:39AM +0200, Anders Holmberg wrote:
> > > > Hi!
> > > > Thats intresting.
> > > > I am the total oposit guy.
> > > > I had and have no problems learning gui’s but for me the command line is to hard.
> > > > Although i began with a debian command line system 16 years ago and gave that up for windows a couple of years.
> > > > Now i am back to vinux and a mac with osx.
> > > > I whish i was patient enough to learn command line.
> > > > Maybe i am to dum or maybe i am lazy.
> > > > /A
> > > > > On 17 Jul 2016, at 22:57, Sam Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > "John" == John J Boyer <[email protected]> writes:
> > > > > 
> > > > >    John> I';ve been trying to get a feel for GUIs for years. Sighted
> > > > >    John> colleagues are no help. They only tell me how they use the
> > > > >    John> mouse. They won't use a keyboard shourcut even when it is much
> > > > >    John> simpler. For example, they will scroll down a long document
> > > > >    John> instead of using ctrl+f to find something.  i've tried
> > > > >    John> unsuccessfully tpo find a Jaws trainer. After I reinstalled
> > > > >    John> Windows 7 recently Jaws wouldn't install. I'm now using NVDA
> > > > >    John> and I don't think I'll go back to Jaws.
> > > > > 
> > > > > This is really interesting, because now I'm realizing that I don't know
> > > > > how to teach someone GUIs on modern equipment at all.
> > > > > I don't know  if I can find a solution, but I'll see if I can toss the
> > > > > question around.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I hear your frustration completely about people who know one way of
> > > > > doing something and who aren't even great at articulating that.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I started to say "well, understanding the mouse at least well enough to
> > > > > get your screen reader to click places and stuff is worth knowing.
> > > > > That's true of course, although I just realized that most of the screen
> > > > > readers I use these days actually wouldn't let me click usefully on a
> > > > > scroll bar if I wanted to.
> > > > > So, even if you wanted to be incredibly slow, you can't get work done
> > > > > just understanding the mouse operations.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks for helping me understand an interesting challenge; I'll let you
> > > > > know if I come up with anything that might help at all.
> > > > > 
> > > > > --Sam
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > > [email protected]
> > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > 
> > > --
> > > John J. Boyer; President,
> > > AbilitiesSoft, Inc.
> > > Email: [email protected]
> > > Website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
> > > Status: 501(C)(3) Nonprofit
> > > Location: Madison, Wisconsin USA
> > > Mission: To develop softwares and provide STEM services for people with
> > >          disabilities which are available at no cost.
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
> 
> _______________________________________________
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-- 

Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
			sip:[email protected]
		Email:	[email protected]

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:	http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures	http://www.w3.org/wai/apa

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