Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

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You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and=20
took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get=20
them to buy window-eyes.
73
Butch
WA0VJR
Node 3148
Wallace, ks.


On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works exactly=
=2E=20
> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws=
=20
> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive=
=20
> program instead of a largely free one.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>>  Karen,
>>  Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>  In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>  will
>>  use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>  If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't kno=
w
>>  NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need =
to
>>  learn one of the two.
>>  So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the employ=
er
>>  will allow.
>>  Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws script=
ers
>>  available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>  So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in th=
e
>>  business I can say is rubbish.
>>  Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>  chosen,
>>  the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels =
is
>>  best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>  When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>  purchases,
>>  where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>  interest
>>  to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>  expenditures do.
>>  Glenn
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>>  To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>
>>  Cc: <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]>;
>>  <[email protected]>
>>  Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>=20
>>
>>  The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,  t=
he
>>  rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their clien=
ts
>>  is quite poor.
>>  With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
>>  speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>  reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>  Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we a=
re
>>  creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>  needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give yo=
u
>>  an
>>  exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>  Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>=20
>>=20
>>
>>  On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>=20
>> >  True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,=
=20
>> >  and
>> >  probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>> >  If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advoca=
te
>> >  that
>> >  the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific j=
ob.
>> >  In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did=
=20
>> >  for
>> >  work related situations.
>> >  So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>> >  purchase a JFL product.
>> >  Glenn
>> >  ----- Original Message -----
>> >  From: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>> >  To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>
>> >  Cc: <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]>;
>> >  <[email protected]>
>> >  Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> >  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> >=20
>> >=20
>> >  there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux=
=20
>> >  list
>> >  about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>> >  command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>> >  Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they=20
>> >  market
>> >  to the American rehab community.
>> >  how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the=
=20
>> >  need
>> >  for choices?
>> >  How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>> >  one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality spe=
ech
>> >  is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyon=
e
>> >  brings their needs to the table there.
>> >=20
>> >  if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there i=
s
>> >  money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>> >=20
>> >=20
>> >=20
>> >  On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> >=20
>> > >  Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why =
FS
>> > >  would
>> > >  not be able to do the same.
>> > >  If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game=20
>> > >  changer,
>> > >  and
>> > >  I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> > >  accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> > >  Glenn
>> > >  ----- Original Message -----
>> > >  From: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>> > >  To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>
>> > >  Cc: <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]>;
>> > >  <[email protected]>
>> > >  Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> > >  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > >=20
>> > >=20
>> > >  Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, bein=
g
>> > >  bought
>> > >  by another company.
>> > >  Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools=
=20
>> > >  for
>> > >  Linux.
>> > >  That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You =
can
>> > >  mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> > >  personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and=
=20
>> > >  options
>> > >  for creativity.
>> > >  however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical=20
>> > >  characteristics,
>> > >  hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> > >  To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as=
 it
>> > >  were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple=20
>> > >  efforts
>> > >  at
>> > >  inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive=
=20
>> > >  tools
>> > >  for various  populations that were built into the system.
>> > >  Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at=20
>> > >  least,
>> > >  the
>> > >  consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>> > >  former
>> > >  gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>> > >  Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> > >  Just my thoughts,
>> > >=20
>> > >=20
>> > >=20
>> > >  On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > >=20
>> > > >  I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>> > > >  JFL
>> > > >  I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would brin=
g=20
>> > > >  many
>> > > >  more
>> > > >  users into Linux.
>> > > >  FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than=
=20
>> > > >  Orca.
>> > > >=20
>> > > >  Glenn
>> > > >  ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >  From: "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]>
>> > > >  To: <[email protected]>
>> > > >  Cc: <[email protected]>
>> > > >  Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>> > > >  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > >=20
>> > > >=20
>> > > > > > > > >  "KL" =3D=3D Karen Lewellen <[email protected]> w=
rites:
>> > > >=20
>> > > > KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, a=
nd
>> > > > KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>> > > > KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous=
,
>> > > > KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>> > > > KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he h=
as
>> > > > KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>> > > >=20
>> > > >  Hi Karen,
>> > > >=20
>> > > >  I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualification=
s.=20
>> > > >  I
>> > > >  also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and=
 I
>> > > >  believe he=E2=80=99d be happy to be corrected about possible tech=
nical
>> > > >  inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity=
 to
>> > > >  find out what=E2=80=99s possibly missing in making anybody better=
=20
>> > > >  informed.
>> > > >=20
>> > > >  As for =E2=80=9Cabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced=
=E2=80=9D, what
>> > > >  reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard=
=20
>> > > >  desktop
>> > > >  with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common bli=
nd=20
>> > > >  user
>> > > >  who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process=
=20
>> > > >  text
>> > > >  documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>> > > >=20
>> > > >  And let=E2=80=99s be realistic.  We celebrate every single develo=
per hired=20
>> > > >  to
>> > > >  improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of t=
he
>> > > >  matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the=
=20
>> > > >  kinds
>> > > >  of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works a=
t=20
>> > > >  his
>> > > >  job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones=
=20
>> > > >  and I
>> > > >  appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work =
on
>> > > >  other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I d=
o.
>> > > >=20
>> > > >  Regards,
>> > > >  Milan
>> > > >=20
>> > > >=20
>> > > >=20
>> > > >=20
>> > >=20
>> > >=20
>> >=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>>=20
>
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