Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

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Glenn,
let me see.
The NFB once tried to get  New York state to stop providing services to=20
individuals using   service animals.
For a time you could not get services there if  using paratransit.
In the state of Wisconsin a blind child drowned at a NFB summer camp,=20
because the teacher thought  they were providing Nfb philosophy swimming=20
training...no suite from the blind parents, their kid died for the NfB=20
cause.
And from my personal experience, because of  both Nfb stance and other=20
perspectives  after I was accepted into Georgetown law school and catholic=
=20
University school of law, the state of Arkansas would not buy me a=20
computer....at all.
And of course there are the cult like practices at Nfb training centers=20
where individuals are expected to cut off ties with their families, are=20
forced to become blind by the organizations definition, and discouraged=20
from even using  sighted help when shopping unless the help is paid.
do not ever suggest that the NfB  philosophy has provided anything=20
uniformly  respectable for anyone.
Oh, the labor laws they violate in the state of Maryland...the more I=20
write the more examples I  can recall.
Lord when I worked for Xerox, it was the newly blinded I would meet being=
=20
told they were not good blind people if their canes looked different by=20
Nfb standards
Karen



On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:

> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* improv=
e=20
> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the =
NFB=20
> is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly mistaken.
>
>
>
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>  This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where t=
he
>>  agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>  Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problem=
s,
>>  but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that socie=
ty
>>  has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>  skills and high expectations.
>>  And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>  choice.
>>  Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this i=
s
>>  organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
>>  that
>>  it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>  organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>  And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>  Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational cours=
e
>>  in
>>  college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choic=
e
>>  in
>>  this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>  will
>>  reach the same end result.
>>  In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want=
 to
>>  use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>  questions asked.
>>  They would not have to fight to get it.
>>  I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>  software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>  When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch we=
ll
>>  enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>
>>  Glenn
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: "Butch Bussen" <[email protected]>
>>  To: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>>  Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; "Mi=
lan
>>  Zamazal" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
>>  Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>=20
>>
>>  You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>  took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
>>  them to buy window-eyes.
>>  73
>>  Butch
>>  WA0VJR
>>  Node 3148
>>  Wallace, ks.
>>=20
>>
>>  On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>=20
>> >  And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>> >  In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works=20
>> >  exactly.
>> >  after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Ja=
ws
>> >  users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expens=
ive
>> >  program instead of a largely free one.
>> >=20
>> >=20
>> >=20
>> >  On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> >=20
>> > >    Karen,
>> > >    Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>> > >    In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the=20
>> > >    counselors
>> > >    will
>> > >    use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>> > >    If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don=
't=20
>> > >    know
>> > >    NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will=
=20
>> > >    need
>> > >  to
>> > >    learn one of the two.
>> > >    So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>> > >  employer
>> > >    will allow.
>> > >    Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>> > >  scripters
>> > >    available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>> > >    So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years=
 in=20
>> > >    the
>> > >    business I can say is rubbish.
>> > >    Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may =
be
>> > >    chosen,
>> > >    the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor=
=20
>> > >    feels
>> > >  is
>> > >    best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>> > >    When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>> > >    purchases,
>> > >    where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's be=
st
>> > >    interest
>> > >    to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back li=
ke=20
>> > >    VR
>> > >    expenditures do.
>> > >    Glenn
>> > >=20
>> > >    ----- Original Message -----
>> > >    From: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>> > >    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>
>> > >    Cc: <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]=
>;
>> > >    <[email protected]>
>> > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>> > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > >=20
>> > >=20
>> > >    The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets remind=
ed,
>> > >  the
>> > >    rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>> > >  clients
>> > >    is quite poor.
>> > >    With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making=
,
>> > >    speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>> > >    reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request=
=2E
>> > >    Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific=
,=20
>> > >    we
>> > >  are
>> > >    creating an employment program where our clients will train in=20
>> > >    Linux,
>> > >    needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will g=
ive=20
>> > >    you
>> > >    an
>> > >    exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>> > >    Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>> > >=20
>> > >=20
>> > >=20
>> > >    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > >=20
>> > > >    True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at=
=20
>> > > >    work,
>> > > >    and
>> > > >    probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the=20
>> > > >    client.
>> > > >    If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>> > > >  advocate
>> > > >    that
>> > > >    the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a=20
>> > > >    specific
>> > > >  job.
>> > > >    In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than =
we=20
>> > > >    did
>> > > >    for
>> > > >    work related situations.
>> > > >    So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would=
=20
>> > > >    indeed
>> > > >    purchase a JFL product.
>> > > >    Glenn
>> > > >    ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >    From: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>> > > >    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>
>> > > >    Cc: <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal"=20
>> > > >    <[email protected]>;
>> > > >    <[email protected]>
>> > > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> > > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > >=20
>> > > >=20
>> > > >    there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the=
=20
>> > > >    blinux
>> > > >    list
>> > > >    about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed t=
o=20
>> > > >    say
>> > > >    command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>> > > >    Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead t=
hey
>> > > >    market
>> > > >    to the American rehab community.
>> > > >    how much market research has  the rehab community done to suppo=
rt=20
>> > > >    the
>> > > >    need
>> > > >    for choices?
>> > > >    How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>> > > >    one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quali=
ty
>> > > >  speech
>> > > >    is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.=20
>> > > >    everyone
>> > > >    brings their needs to the table there.
>> > > >=20
>> > > >    if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove=
=20
>> > > >    there is
>> > > >    money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>> > > >=20
>> > > >=20
>> > > >=20
>> > > >    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > >=20
>> > > > >    Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't kno=
w=20
>> > > > >  why
>> > > > >  FS
>> > > > >    would
>> > > > >    not be able to do the same.
>> > > > >    If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real gam=
e
>> > > > >    changer,
>> > > > >    and
>> > > > >    I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seei=
ng
>> > > > >    accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> > > > >    Glenn
>> > > > >    ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > >    From: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>> > > > >    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>
>> > > > >    Cc: <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal"=20
>> > > > >    <[email protected]>;
>> > > > >    <[email protected]>
>> > > > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> > > > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > >=20
>> > > > >=20
>> > > > >    Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer=
,=20
>> > > > >    being
>> > > > >    bought
>> > > > >    by another company.
>> > > > >    Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their=
=20
>> > > > >    tools
>> > > > >    for
>> > > > >    Linux.
>> > > > >    That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay=
=2E=20
>> > > > >    You
>> > > > >  can
>> > > > >    mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> > > > >    personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes=
=20
>> > > > >    and
>> > > > >    options
>> > > > >    for creativity.
>> > > > >    however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>> > > > >    characteristics,
>> > > > >    hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> > > > >    To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundat=
ion=20
>> > > > >    as
>> > > > >  it
>> > > > >    were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few App=
le
>> > > > >    efforts
>> > > > >    at
>> > > > >    inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house=20
>> > > > >    adaptive
>> > > > >    tools
>> > > > >    for various  populations that were built into the system.
>> > > > >    Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory=
 at
>> > > > >    least,
>> > > > >    the
>> > > > >    consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom =
or=20
>> > > > >    the
>> > > > >    former
>> > > > >    gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  wor=
k.
>> > > > >    Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> > > > >    Just my thoughts,
>> > > > >=20
>> > > > >=20
>> > > > >=20
>> > > > >    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > >=20
>> > > > > >    I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linu=
x.
>> > > > > >    JFL
>> > > > > >    I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it woul=
d=20
>> > > > > >    bring
>> > > > > >    many
>> > > > > >    more
>> > > > > >    users into Linux.
>> > > > > >    FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust=
=20
>> > > > > >    than
>> > > > > >    Orca.
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > >    Glenn
>> > > > > >    ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > >    From: "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]>
>> > > > > >    To: <[email protected]>
>> > > > > >    Cc: <[email protected]>
>> > > > > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>> > > > > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > > > > > > >    "KL" =3D=3D Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.=
net>
>> > > > > > > > > > >  writes:
>> > > > > >  KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualificatio=
ns,
>> > > > > >  and
>> > > > > > KL>   absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if=
 he
>> > > > > > KL>   defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is=20
>> > > > > > KL>   dangerous,
>> > > > > > KL>   because he is educating those outside of the accessibili=
ty
>> > > > > > KL>   experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. =
 he
>> > > > > >  has
>> > > > > >  KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > >    Hi Karen,
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > >    I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>> > > > > >  qualifications.
>> > > > > >    I
>> > > > > >    also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedba=
ck=20
>> > > > > >    and
>> > > > > >  I
>> > > > > >    believe he=C3=A2?Td be happy to be corrected about possible=
=20
>> > > > > >    technical
>> > > > > >    inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good=20
>> > > > > >    opportunity
>> > > > > >  to
>> > > > > >    find out what=C3=A2?Ts possibly missing in making anybody b=
etter
>> > > > > >    informed.
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > >    As for =C3=A2?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not=20
>> > > > > >  experienced=C3=A2?=C2=9D,
>> > > > > >  what
>> > > > > >    reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more=20
>> > > > > >    standard
>> > > > > >    desktop
>> > > > > >    with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a comm=
on
>> > > > > >  blind
>> > > > > >    user
>> > > > > >    who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and=
=20
>> > > > > >    process
>> > > > > >    text
>> > > > > >    documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.=
?
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > >    And let=C3=A2?Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single=
=20
>> > > > > >  developer
>> > > > > >  hired
>> > > > > >    to
>> > > > > >    improve accessibility.  This tells something about the stat=
e=20
>> > > > > >    of
>> > > > > >  the
>> > > > > >    matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix al=
l=20
>> > > > > >    the
>> > > > > >    kinds
>> > > > > >    of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas=
=20
>> > > > > >    works at
>> > > > > >    his
>> > > > > >    job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgen=
t=20
>> > > > > >    ones
>> > > > > >    and I
>> > > > > >    appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to=
=20
>> > > > > >    work
>> > > > > >  on
>> > > > > >    other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, =
as=20
>> > > > > >  I
>> > > > > >  do.
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > >    Regards,
>> > > > > >    Milan
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > > >=20
>> > > > >=20
>> > > >=20
>> > >=20
>>=20
>
>
>
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