Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

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lol...addressing the entire convention?
Shortly before  freedom scientific further limited choices by taking gw=20
micro off the table?
Long after apple was successfully building screen reader softer into the=20
operating system?
Linux too for that matter?
I think not.



On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Well that could have been a misinformed member, and possibly nobody agree=
d
> with him.
> And, at  the time, that may have been the case.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <[email protected]>; "John G. Heim" <[email protected]=
u>;
> <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]>;
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 12:39 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> actually, I have a copy I believe of a speech from a convention where an
> nfb member  stated that built in screen readers were bad for the
> blind...so, I doubt that rumor is false.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <[email protected]>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>; "Butch Bussen"
>> <[email protected]>; "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>> Cc: <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]>;
>> <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
>> sadly mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where t=
he
>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problem=
s,
>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that socie=
ty
>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>> skills and high expectations.
>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>> choice.
>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this i=
s
>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
>>> that
>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational cours=
e
>>> in
>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choic=
e
>>> in
>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>> will
>>> reach the same end result.
>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want
>>> to
>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>> questions asked.
>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch we=
ll
>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <[email protected]>
>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>;
>>> "Milan
>>> Zamazal" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>
>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>> exactly.
>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaw=
s
>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensi=
ve
>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   Karen,
>>>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>> counselors
>>>>>   will
>>>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>>> know
>>>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will
>>>>> need
>>>>> to
>>>>>   learn one of the two.
>>>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>>> employer
>>>>>   will allow.
>>>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>>> scripters
>>>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years i=
n
>>>>> the
>>>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>>>   chosen,
>>>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor
>>>>> feels
>>>>> is
>>>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>>   purchases,
>>>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>>>   interest
>>>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like
>>>>> VR
>>>>>   expenditures do.
>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>
>>>>>   Cc: <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]>;
>>>>>   <[email protected]>
>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded=
,
>>>>> the
>>>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>>>>> clients
>>>>>   is quite poor.
>>>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
>>>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, =
we
>>>>> are
>>>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linu=
x,
>>>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will giv=
e
>>>>> you
>>>>>   an
>>>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the clien=
t.
>>>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>   that
>>>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specifi=
c
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we
>>>>>> did
>>>>>>   for
>>>>>>   work related situations.
>>>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would inde=
ed
>>>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>
>>>>>>   Cc: <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]>=
;
>>>>>>   <[email protected]>
>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blin=
ux
>>>>>>   list
>>>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to s=
ay
>>>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>>>   market
>>>>>>   to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>   need
>>>>>>   for choices?
>>>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove ther=
e
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know wh=
y
>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>   would
>>>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>>   changer,
>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>   Cc: <[email protected]>; "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]=
>;
>>>>>>>   <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer,
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>   bought
>>>>>>>   by another company.
>>>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their too=
ls
>>>>>>>   for
>>>>>>>   Linux.
>>>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. Yo=
u
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>>>   options
>>>>>>>   for creativity.
>>>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>   characteristics,
>>>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation =
as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>>   efforts
>>>>>>>   at
>>>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptiv=
e
>>>>>>>   tools
>>>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>>   least,
>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or t=
he
>>>>>>>   former
>>>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>>   JFL
>>>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bri=
ng
>>>>>>>>   many
>>>>>>>>   more
>>>>>>>>   users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>>   Orca.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>   To: <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>   Cc: <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" =3D=3D Karen Lewellen <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous=
,
>>>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback an=
d
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>   believe he=C3=A2?Td be happy to be corrected about possible tech=
nical
>>>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunit=
y
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>   find out what=C3=A2?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>>   informed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   As for =C3=A2?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced=
=C3=A2?=C2=9D,
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>>>   desktop
>>>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>   user
>>>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and proces=
s
>>>>>>>>   text
>>>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   And let=C3=A2?Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single develo=
per
>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>>>   kinds
>>>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works =
at
>>>>>>>>   his
>>>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent one=
s
>>>>>>>>   and I
>>>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Regards,
>>>>>>>>   Milan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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