GRAB and APT (was: [[email protected]: Returned mail ...]

On Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 07:09:20PM -0800, Greg Kurtzer wrote:
> I am forwarding this to this E-mail addr (the one listed at freshmeat just
> bounced). Please read responce below (or CC'ed to the GRAB mailing list at
> http://www.runlevelzero.net/pipermail/grab/2002-February/000167.html.
> 
> Sorry for the length...
Hmm.  _I_ am sorry for mentioning that old-forgotten spambox
somewhere... and for long delay (multisession reply).

>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> [email protected]
>     (reason: 550 <[email protected]>... User not known)
---

> but I wanted to be easier to use (for the newbie), and not rely on specific
> Apt repositories (rather any FTP server).
Well, watching our distro (http://altlinux.com) switching to
APT/RPM from plain RPM, heavily ironed out for _right_
dependencies repository is just vital for APT to work -- so it's
not exactly user's job to try and introduce APT, but rather
distributor's (who controls its package base).

> Also, when I announced on the GRAB mailing list that the Apt
> project is finally moving to RPM, (with one exception),
Maybe "is being ported to RPM, too" instead of "is moving" :)

> everyone asked me to continue development on GRAB because it is
> easier to use, and more functional. I honestly tried arguing
> the fact that the deps are better handled in Apt (because of
> the repositories), but was still asked to continue development.
Exactly -- since if you are somewhat independent of high-quality
package dependencies, there surely is essential range of
situation when this should help.  For example, Mandrake came up
with some Perl stuff (urpmi) to pick up "things this package
needs".

> I created repositories, and rebuilt all of the Apt RPMS for
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> many OS's. I used it in place of GRAB everywhere I could. IT
Yes, and it's the most effort-taking part AFAIK.  But this way
you become at least partially "co-vendor" :(

> Today, I use both because they are both good at different
> things.
Probably :)

> There is an anomaly of development of opensource code. It has
> to do with all of the focus being with the largest, most well
> known or _cool_ project out there. A lot of the other great
> ideas get lost because of lack of community support (i.e.
> Sendmail, Apache, WU-FTPD, etc...). These packages may not be
> the best, but they are historically the leaders and the
> community pays less attention to the "less well known" apps. I
Of these Sendmail is quite known for its idiosyncrasy, WU was
better when its authors nursed it (and more secure servers
instead of both these exist now) -- and I wouldn't say Apache is
out of focus or lesser-known software piece!

> don't want to stop development on GRAB simply because there is
> a bigger, more well known app out there. GRAB may have similar
> functionality, but it also does other things that Apt has no
> future plans of doing. It is also easier to use for newbies. 
No-no-no-no-no.  Of course if significant effort has been put in
-and- community is around -and- it says they like it, why not?

I personally don't think majority of distributions will switch to
APT promptly since (again) rep cleanup is *big* job to be done.

So easier, though probably not that strict and "done right"
implementations of the same basic principles are OK.

> I appreciate your comments, but I don't see myself stopping
> development on GRAB, to work on Apt. Again, I want to say how
> great I think Apt is, and I don't EVER want to talk it down. I
Greg, don't take it up to heart -- it was never meant as
criticism but rather "but did you see that" :-)

Say if I worked on some non-trivial task (realizing that doing it
right is many man-years and probably beyond my scope and
possibilities) _and_ you noticed the project and commented that
there's something better -- I'd only be thankful (I hope ;)!

And I've almost stepped into that pitfall once.  What I'd be
doing is far better done by gmp :-)

> just believe that GRAB works as well, and fills certain voids
> that Apt leaves behind. BTW, I have approx 15,000 downloads of
> GRAB, (most from GRAB updating itself by users running it from
> CRON).
BTW what could be done easier if whole thing is already
apt-friendly?  Could you spend a few words on that topic -- maybe
it would make sense to grab it into distro as well.

---

Good luck and strong health to you and your project!

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <[email protected]>
  ------ http://visa.chem.univ.kiev.ua/~mike/

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