Re: Re: (Univ that only teaches unix/linux)

Neither can a person learn CS in an environment where *nothing* is taught 
or mentioned about MS products/environment (if I understood the original 
poster correctly).

My impression was that the CS department at that university had a "see no 
evil" approach to education.

I contend that a properly educated student has to have some sort of 
understanding of at least what a "C#" or a ".net" (or whatever the flavor 
of the day) is in order to understand what they do or do not know.

I am not suggesting that university is the place to learn the latest flavor 
or the latest version of this or that program/language. As you pointed out, 
there is tech school (or other forums, books, etc.) for that.  However, it 
*is* an important training ground and an important place for people to gain 
some protected exposure to the dark side.

I just can't accept that one of the most prevalent software environments on 
the planet should not be at least mentioned in a university CS curriculum.

My viewpoint is along the line of [to paraphrase] "I will defend your right 
to say whatever you wish to say, no matter how wrong you are".  If 
open-source people start pretending (in education) that closed-source does 
not exist, then the open-source people are no longer "open".  I think it is 
more appropriate to present, to students, what the closed-source world is 
and then demonstrate, through education, actions, and experience, that 
open-source is better.  That is the more difficult road, but I believe 
better for the students.

Jay

Lawrence MacIntyre wrote:
> If you think I missed your point, then you don't agree.  You can learn
> c# and .net from the "* for dummies" books.  You can't learn computer
> science by learning c# and .net.
> 
> On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 16:32, Jay Smith wrote:
> 
>>Lawrence,
>>
>>I agree, but you may have missed my point.
>>
>>Familiarizing students with an environment that they are highly likely to 
>>encounter (and upon which their employability may depend) in the real world 
>>is beneficial to the students -- and to their future employers.
>>
>>I am *not* suggesting that university is the place to teach every possible 
>>"flavor of the day".
>>
>>At the same time, I don't think it is appropriate for a CS department chair 
>>to pretend that MS stuff does not exist.
>>
>>I have talked to plenty of Windoze people who have been on the job for 
>>several years and would have a difficult time explaining what a linux is. I 
>>just don't want newly minted Linux /Unix people to have that same level of 
>>ignorance in the other direction.
>>
>>Jay
>>
>>Lawrence MacIntyre wrote:
>>
>>>Jay:
>>>
>>>You missed the point.  What we are saying is that the University is
>>>teaching you to fish*.  If I taught you c# and .net, I would be giving
>>>you two fish.  However, they will be gone soon, and other languages will
>>>take their place, and knowing them will be useless.
>>>
>>>We say teach Linux because you can read the source code and experiment
>>>with it and add features and change them.  You can't do that with
>>>microsoft stuff.  The universities would be defrauding their students if
>>>they simply taught them to use programming languages and called it a
>>>Computer Science Degree.
>>>
>>>*If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day.  If you teach a man to
>>>fish, he will eat for a lifetime.
>>>
>>>On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 15:13, Jay Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lawrence,
>>>>
>>>>To quote yourself:
>>>>
>>>>  "A university education is supposed to provide you with
>>>>  a broad knowledge base."
>>>>
>>>>I submit that (in the context of a CS degree) the definition of "broad" 
>>>>*does* include products that operate in an MS product environment 
>>>>regardless of whether you like them or not or whether they are inferior, 
>>>>superior, or whatever.
>>>>
>>>>For the same reason, a university education should include classes on all 
>>>>sorts of things that aren't exactly to one's current taste.
>>>>
>>>>As for the job market, I believe that (rightly or wrongly) most 
>>>>college-bound young peoples' thoughts are focused on getting jobs more than 
>>>>getting a well-rounded education that helps them be better people that will 
>>>>benefit humanity, their community, and themselves.  My observation is that 
>>>>they don't yet know those other things exist.  They do, however, know that 
>>>>they need jobs and thus need whatever skills employers demand (rightly or 
>>>>wrongly).
>>>>
>>>>I suggest that all the "don't teach MS at my university" passion should 
>>>>instead be addressed to the corporate CEOs, CFOs, boards, CIOs, etc., who 
>>>>need help learning what linux, unix, and the world of open software and 
>>>>systems has to offer.  These people believe the MS adds they see on TV and 
>>>>they instruct their subordinates to buy MS products.
>>>>
>>>>Change has to happen both at the top and the bottom.
>>>>
>>>>Jay
>>>>
>>>>Lawrence MacIntyre wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>If all you want is training for entry-level coding jobs, then don't go
>>>>>to a University.  Go to a 2 year Community College.  That is the role
>>>>>that those schools fill.  A university education is supposed to provide
>>>>>you with a broad knowledge base.  The 2 year school will give you some
>>>>>background in operating systems and architecture, but will focus on
>>>>>training for the job market.
>>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 14:24, Jay Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Sawan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>While I agree in principle about the goodness of unix/linux, etc., I am 
>>>>>>concerned that young people coming out of school need to get JOBS and 
>>>>>>*part* of the University's role to give them the training and credentials 
>>>>>>they need to enter the world of work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The ugly truth is that there are a lot of shops out there that run *only* 
>>>>>>MS products.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>While the student might get a better education if they only learn 
>>>>>>linux/unix, they might not be as well equipped for the work force if they 
>>>>>>don't know MS stuff too (regardless of the quality or worthwhileness of the 
>>>>>>MS products).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Students and there parents are well advised to consider all angles of this 
>>>>>>and address such questions with the CS department heads.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jay
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sawan Vithlani wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Sadly, the lessons of this text are seldom taught in Universities. On a
>>>>>>>>recent tour of colleges with my son to select a computer science school, 
>>>>>>>>had a conversation with the Dean of Undergraduate CS studies at a
>>>>>>>>prestigious school. The Dean told us that the school focused on Linux,
>>>>>>>>Solaris and Java. I asked what my son might learn about new technologies
>>>>>>>>like C# and .NET during his four years at the school. "Nothing, if we can
>>>>>>>>help it!" was the answer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sorry, dont mean to troll or anything, but I would say this is a topic of 
>>>>>>>deep argument and flamewars among people who really understand UNIX and 
>>>>>>>people who are relative newcomers. If you are an experienced UNIX user 
>>>>>>>then I apologise for all this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For example, some of the utilities/programs have to be maintained as they 
>>>>>>>are to maintain compatibilities/portability between similar systems 
>>>>>>>(Solaris/Linux as an example). Again, if you use this stuff day to day, 
>>>>>>>you will understand the quirky behaviour and appreciate why it was 
>>>>>>>introduced.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>As for the CS Dean, sorry but he is absolutely right. First of all C# 
>>>>>>>and .NET have nothing to do with Linux/UNIX, their design/implementation, 
>>>>>>>or annoyances. C# and .NET are not "new technologies" they are merely 
>>>>>>>a device invented by a corporation to further their monopolistic policies and 
>>>>>>>ambitions. .NET is a direct respone to JAVA, which was eating up their 
>>>>>>>market like anything. .NET allows them to have a greater stranglehold 
>>>>>>>over the devloper.  
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Also look at it this way: if you consider Linux/JAVA to be more low level 
>>>>>>>stuff, learning it will enable your child to easily grasp higher 
>>>>>>>technologies. It is much more harder to go from .NET to .CAPUCCINO if all 
>>>>>>>you know is high level .NET style stuff. Knowledge of low level stuff 
>>>>>>>enables easier transitions. Things like Linux allow your kid to poke into 
>>>>>>>the very heart of the system and mess around and thus, learn something. 
>>>>>>>.NET and related stuff will only allow her to make "higher level " 
>>>>>>>software (web pages, apps, etc) which, frankly, any one can do in these 
>>>>>>>days of point and click developer tools.  
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Another thing: if you are a fee paying parent, be grateful that the Uni 
>>>>>>>is using excellent and free software to teach you child. If they use 
>>>>>>>proprietory stuff, who do you think is going to finally foot the license 
>>>>>>>bills? Who do you think is going to repay the same bills after a 3-5 year 
>>>>>>>cycle as the Uni is now into a "forced to upgrade to newer version" mode?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sawan

-- 
Jay Smith

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