Re: MAKE-INSTANCE and STRUCTURE-CLASS

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Hi

my question was about "how can you do this in the least gross way?"

As per the bureaucracy, I agree that you need to do things to ensure that
it handles STRUCTURE-CLASS and STRUCTURE-OBJECTs in a proper manner.

The question is "how"?  And the sub question is "why the standard writers
punted on this?".  Because, IMHO, they did.

MA


On Mon, Jul 6, 2026 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Tim Bradshaw <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 6 Jul 2026, at 14:31, David McClain (as dbm at refined-audiometrics do=
t
> com) <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > But now we are getting into the weeds of language lawyering, and I=E2=
=80=99m not
> even sure how to interpret the last comments about bureaucracy. Either yo=
u
> want to accomplish a goal or you don=E2=80=99t. Not sure how arguing abou=
t arcane
> corners of language design, =E2=80=9Cas the founding fahers envifrsioned =
it=E2=80=9D, helps
> out?
>
> I had interpreted Marco's question to be 'can you use make-instance with
> structures in portable CL?', to which the answer I gave was no.  It turns
> out that the eql-method trick maybe means you sort-of can, but it makes m=
e
> itch (and will certainly break existing code).
>
> I wasn't answering the question about what you can do in some specific
> implementation.
>
> The comment about bureaucracy is aimed at CLOS, not you (and also a play
> on a famous quote about racing cars).  CLOS provides this giant bureaucra=
cy
> around creating instances, and I'm suggesting that just passing an argume=
nt
> which you call to create whatever it is may often be a radically simpler
> approach than trying to persuade make-instance to deal with structures, o=
r
> providing some one-true-object-allocator.  In other words I'm suggesting
> that may be code shouldn't wire in make-instance at all but accept a
> parameter.
>
> --tim
>
>

--=20
Marco Antoniotti, Professor, Director         tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01
DISCo, University of Milan-Bicocca U14 2043   http://dcb.disco.unimib.it
Viale Sarca 336
I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY

REGAINS: https://regains.disco.unimib.it/

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi<br><br></div>my question was about =
&quot;how can you do this in the least gross way?&quot;<br><br></div>As per=
 the bureaucracy, I agree that you need to do things to ensure that it hand=
les=C2=A0STRUCTURE-CLASS and STRUCTURE-OBJECTs in a proper manner.<br><br><=
/div>The question is &quot;how&quot;?=C2=A0 And the sub question is &quot;w=
hy the standard writers punted on this?&quot;.=C2=A0 Because, IMHO, they di=
d.<br><br></div><div>MA</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, J=
ul 6, 2026 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Tim Bradshaw &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]=
om">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">On 6 Jul 2026, at 14:31, David McClain (as dbm at refined-a=
udiometrics dot com) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; But now we are getting into the weeds of language lawyering, and I=E2=
=80=99m not even sure how to interpret the last comments about bureaucracy.=
 Either you want to accomplish a goal or you don=E2=80=99t. Not sure how ar=
guing about arcane corners of language design, =E2=80=9Cas the founding fah=
ers envifrsioned it=E2=80=9D, helps out?<br>
<br>
I had interpreted Marco&#39;s question to be &#39;can you use make-instance=
 with structures in portable CL?&#39;, to which the answer I gave was no.=
=C2=A0 It turns out that the eql-method trick maybe means you sort-of can, =
but it makes me itch (and will certainly break existing code).<br>
<br>
I wasn&#39;t answering the question about what you can do in some specific =
implementation.<br>
<br>
The comment about bureaucracy is aimed at CLOS, not you (and also a play on=
 a famous quote about racing cars).=C2=A0 CLOS provides this giant bureaucr=
acy around creating instances, and I&#39;m suggesting that just passing an =
argument which you call to create whatever it is may often be a radically s=
impler approach than trying to persuade make-instance to deal with structur=
es, or providing some one-true-object-allocator.=C2=A0 In other words I&#39=
;m suggesting that may be code shouldn&#39;t wire in make-instance at all b=
ut accept a parameter.<br>
<br>
--tim<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><br><span class=3D"gmail_si=
gnature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">Marco Antoniotti,=
 Professor, Director =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 tel. +39 - =
02 64 48 79 01<br>DISCo, University of Milan-Bicocca U14 2043=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"http://dcb.disco.unimib.it" target=3D"_blank">http://dcb.disco.un=
imib.it</a><br>Viale Sarca 336<br>I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY<br><br></span></=
div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">REGAINS: <a href=3D"https://regai=
ns.disco.unimib.it/" target=3D"_blank">https://regains.disco.unimib.it/</a>=
<br></span></div></div>

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