Re: LispStat, R and ViSta [was: Re: Status?]

Hi all,
	Like Jan I got excited by Duncan's email, and checked out
http://www.omegahat.org/RXLisp/
	I followed Duncan's instructions for our linux system, and it seems to work fine 
(by which I mean that all of Jan's sample code works!).
Andy

Duncan Temple Lang wrote:
> Hi Forrest.
> 
>   It is definitely preferable to avoid giving up existing XLisp-Stat
> code, especially when the facilities you probably want are not
> currently part of R. Working from the RGtk or tcltk packages to create
> dynamic graphics involves a lot of work, both design and programming
> given that the R graphics are based on a static model.
>   
>   I wonder if ggobi and the programmatic access via Rggobi and RGtk
> would give you similar facilities to what currently exists in XLisp.
> 
>  As you mention, it would be easiest to combine R and XLisp-Stat so
> that you could use existing XLisp code and make use of R's statistical
> functionality, etc. This is a perfect example for the use of embedding
> one system inside the other; something we have done as part of the
> Omegahat project for numerous languages.  
> 
> So with some vital help from Luke, I have created an R package that
> provides a very experimental interface between R and XLisp by allowing
> XLisp to be embedded in R. The package contains and requires some
> minor modifications to XLisp which allow it to be used as a shared
> library and currently this only works on Unix.  It allows one to call
> arbitray XLisp functions, however there is an issue with the graphics
> that I haven't sorted out yet.  It did take less than a day
> to put together so far, so I am reasonable confident that I and others
> can iron out the details and make it reasonably complete and robust.
> 
> The package is available from
>   http://www.omegahat.org/RXLisp
> 
> Given that I only spent a day on it, don't expect too much
> in the way of documentation, etc. Just e-mail me if you
> have problems. I'd be very happy to hear from interested
> people and we can
> 
>  Duncan.
> 
> 
> [email protected] wrote:
> 
>>I have been taking a break for the last month or so, and am only just
>>now catching up on my email.  Otherwise, I would have joined this
>>discussion earlier.  And... I apologize for the length of this, but I
>>don't think it is overly long.
>>
>>>From the amount of activity in the LispStat news group (none), it seems
>>that LispStat is dead. We all know that Luke is working on R and not on
>>LispStat, and that Jan has switched UCLA over from LispStat to R. And we
>>have not heard from users of LispStat for some time.  So, it seems no
>>one is using LispStat.
>>
>>For me, at least, this is not the case. As the developer of ViSta, I
>>have and still am using LispStat a great deal. In fact, I cannot
>>conceive of doing what I do with any other system.  
>>
>>Of course, since I use it so much, I am very aware of LispStat's
>>strengths and weaknesses, and want to add my views to the discussion.
>>However, I spend all my time using only LispStat, so I can't make any
>>comparisons to R or to any other systems.
>>
>>To me, the strengths of LispStat are:
>>1) The dynamic, highly interactive graphics
>>2) The object system
>>3) Lisp language and byte compiler
>>
>>These strengths make LispStat an ideal system for implementing
>>statistical systems. It is less suited for doing statistical analysis.
>>As a result, the most significant uses of LispStat have been statistical
>>systems such as Arc and ViSta.
>>
>>In the work I've done with LispStat,  ViSta's spreadplot architecture is
>>the best example of LispStat being used to implement a statistical
>>(sub)system (described in a forthcoming JCGS paper by myself, Pedro
>>Valero, Richard Faldowski and Carla Bann). 
>>
>>The weaknesses of LispStat are:
>>1) No high-level analysis modules
>>2) No standards for data sets, models, etc.
>>3) No user-oriented data manipulation language
>>4) Totally inadequate documentation
>>5) Poor or non-existant printing 
>>6) No static graphic manipulation facilities
>>7) The underlying operating system interfaces are old.
>>
>>ViSta attempts to take care of these weaknesses, with varying degrees of
>>success. Specifically:
>>1) ViSta has high-level analysis plugins. The method for writing these
>>plugins is documented. I believe this very well solves the first weakness. 
>>2) ViSta's statistical object architecture -- a hierarchy of objects
>>that include datasets, datasheets, data editors, transformations,
>>analysis methods, models and plugins --- solves the lack of standards
>>for such things. The implementation is slow for data objects and needs
>>to be re-architected. The implementation for the others is more than
>>adequate.
>>3) At the suggestion of Sandy Weisberg, I have incorporated PARCIL, a
>>C-to-Lisp Parser. This allows users to type a=2*(b+c)^2 rather than the
>>awkward lisp equivalent:
>>(setf a (^ (* 2 (+ b c)) 2)) 
>>(I'm sorry I can't give a proper reference to PARCIL, I'm not at home).
>>4) Pedro Valero, Gabriel Molina, Michael Friendly and I, in various
>>combinations, are working on the documentation problem.
>>5) Printing, while better than LispStat, is still not adequate.
>>6) Static graphics manipulation, as in SAS (and, apparently R), is
>>totally lacking.
>>7) Nothing has been done about this.
>>
>>(Note that the newest version of ViSta use a modified version of
>>LispStat that only works under Windows, so that Mac/Unix users don't
>>have all the new features. This problem can be fixed by someone familiar
>>with LispStat and Unix.)
>>
>>I am very interested in an effort to combine the strengths of LispStat
>>and R, but have no clue how it would be done.  From my viewpoint,
>>though, it would need to add the three strengths of LispStat (Lisp,
>>Objects and Dynamic Graphics) to the existing R environment, and it
>>would need to work in all three supported environments -- Windows, Mac,
>>and Linux/Unix
>>
>>Anyone know how to do that?
>>
>>Forrest
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