Re: cone features

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Robert G. Brown wrote:

> Hi, I'm a new list member but a very long term unix/linux person and
> have used lots of console/tty mail clients over close to 20 years now.

I am in a simmilar situation. About 10 years in Unix (FreeBSD), have used 
many mail clients (including windows and FreeBSD.. terminal, non terminal, 
web based etc..)

I am a new user to Cone too, so take that in mind as I give feedback.

> Since word has it that pine is now being strongly deprecated because of
> both its security problems and its nonstandard semi-open license

As a side note. On windows I am using a program that has probably been 
updated very little in close to 5 years, yet it's still what works best 
for me and my clients. Sometimes it's ok (at least in my view, but I only 
have a handfull of users to worry about) to stay with something that 
works.


> of people who have been living with pine are going to be looking around
> for an equally powerful and easy to use alternative.

I consider myself in the same boat. Not so much out of concern, but Cone 
"seemed" liked a superior alternative for me.

> I personally don't much care for mutt or elm, and cannot stand X-GUI
> mail clients as they are SO slow.

Are you looking something just for you or for a number of users?

> tutorial/manual has a fairly weak google footprint.

> especially for somebody moving from pine but also in absolute terms.  A
> good programming practice is consistency of an interface, and this
> isn't.

Totally agree. I didn't find Cone to be as consistant when I recently 
tried it.

>  A second is to make the product ergodic, which means in the case
> of a console interface to make it maximally functional from the home
> keys WITHOUT using exotica like cursor control or pgup/pgdn, at least
> not exclusively.

For me Cone's use of the <Del> key was a show stopper. For most parts of 
the program they use regular keys or CTRL+Key. When I mentioned I could 
not get Cone working with several different terminal types and suggested 
an alternate key to <DEL> I was less impressed with the answer I got than 
with anything else I had not liked.. The answer was "modify one of the 
terminals that almost works".


> After all, they are in DIFFERENT LOCATIONS on
> different keyboards

Totally agree.

> This is actually a theme of my other criticisms -- a really good console
> interface may well SUPPORT the use of cursor and special function keys
> for users that find them intuitive and easy to learn quickly, but it
> should ALSO SUPPORT fast and equally intuitive ways of doing things from
> the keyboard directly, with e.g. suitable emacsoid control shifts to
> increase the range of what can be done.

Agree too.

>  Usually this is just a matter
> of adding a few more cases to a switch -- absolutely trivial to code --
> but it GREATLY increases user happiness and the long run efficiency of
> the tool.

That was why I stopped using it fairly quickly (after less than 2 weeks). 
I am a developer myself and if I user told me they were having problems 
with a key and it was near trivial for me to fix, I would say something 
like "thanks for your suggestion we will consider using a different key 
and in the mean time you could consider changing your terminal type..."


> Remember, users that REALLY want ONLY stuff like cursor keys to function
> and to ALWAYS have to point there way through menus and file browsers
> won't be using a console mail tool anyway

Yup.

> cone also really really needs a mechanism for "exporting" messages to
> regular files.

Agree.

> Sure, these are clones of pine functionality, but one
> SHOULD try to clone the GOOD parts of pine's functionality in cone --
> some functionality is simply universally desireable!

I wouldn't think of it as a function that is a clone of a nother program, 
but as ou mentioned.. simply a feature that most people will want in 
pretty much all mail clients.

> If just the things above were resolved, I think that cone would move
> from being usable to VERY usable -- to the point where it could attract
> pine users not because they were being forced to move but because cone
> does some things (e.g. handle digital signatures, manage grouped
> operations) better than pine and only needs not to do anything critical
> worse to become a better and more desireable tool.  Might even make cone
> a "pine killer".

Agree. There are some features in Cone that are awsome, but there are also 
a number of issues.. I did a simmilar exercise to yours and wrote about a 
week ago what I liked/disliked.


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