Re: I don't know who's leaking this stuff...

"Chris Wright"

| > | >> I oppose the action of Guantanamo Bay, because that was just like
| > | >> throwing a net over a group of people and saying "Gotcha".
| > | >> Not all of them are guilty, and in my mind, if I were one of them
being
| > | >> held, I'd be screaming blue murder.
| > | >
| > | >    But that is exactly what they're doing with the phone records,
| > | > casting a big net.
| > | >
| > | >> And if they couldn't be trusted or
| > | >> seen to be competent in handling the process, then yes, stop it
until
| > | >> such time it can be controlled.
| > | >
| > | >    You see, we can't trust our government to be competent in
handling
| > | > the process, there has been abuse in the past. That is why we are
| > | > against it. Perhaps you should google: "COINTELPRO"
| > | >
| > |
| > | To both Charles and yourself...
| > |
| > | I don't have any objection to your reasons for not letting them have
| > | access and I share your concerns with the possible misuse of the list.
| > |
| > | Charles is saying that its becoming too big brother which again
relates
| > | to the potential misuse of it.
| > |
| > | You are saying that it 'may' and in all probability 'is' against the
| > | constitution (unless some cleave government wig is capable of proving
| > | its not by the use of massive amounts of mumbo jumbo).
| > |
| > | Neither of those two points can I dispute.
| > | And nor should I wipe them from my concerns and dismiss them (and nor
do
| > I).
| > |
| > | All I am saying is that here and now, there is a threat.  A major
| > | threat.  Since I have nothing to hide, I don't care who is monitoring
my
| > | calls if there is a chance that they will catch some criminal in the
| > | act.  I consider the chance of them misusing the information less than
| > | the chance of them catching criminals in the act.
| >
| > Nothing to hide?  A new product or service and it's related business
plan.
| > A bit of gaming the tax system (not illegal but not something you want
out
| > in the street).  Depending on who you work for chasing women or drinking
a
| > beer can get you fired (not illegal necessarily but has been know to
happen)
| >
| > This administration and it's supporters have shown a propensity to do
such
| > acts as they see themselves as the Guardians of God's true intentions.
(BTW
| > the abuse of intelligence power is not unique to this government and is
not
| > limited to the top)
| >
| > | But, if there was every such a time that the system was abused and
| > | misuse became apparent. I'd be standing next to the both of you
calling
| > | for the whole damn thing to be shut down or whatever.
| >
| > By then it will be too late (if it's not already).  Recall what happened
| > during the McCarthy Era?  Think about the effort necessary to put tooth
| > paste back in the tube.
| >
| > | Its sad that we even have to consider such actions in this age.
| > | I have 3 kids of 6,10 and 11 who I want to be able to grow up and I
| > | would consider anything that helps protect them even at the loss of
some
| > | of my privacy/rights.
| >
| > If you really wanted to protect your kids you would lock them in a cell
24/7
| > and not let them play with anything even potentially hazardous.
| >
| > What you propose is protecting them from freedom.
|
| Locking them away 24/7 is taking away their freedom.

And what you're proposing to allow the government to do is not?

|
| The electronic monitoring of their calls removes none of their freedom,
| BUT, it does have the potential to be used against them.  But its only a
| potential.. Granted there is previous history of abuse of power.

Perhaps not of their freedom but a lot of mine.
|
| But then I suppose if the bad guys knew that all calls were recorded
| then they would find another means, and maybe use some encrypted emails
| or such, so all you are going to pick up and record is idle gossip or
| loose tongues.  So what would be the point of recording anything in the
| first place... (Dang, I gone shot myself in the foot with my arguments
| gone by now).

I would say the bad guys are a leg ahead of this government.
|
| >
| > Better to give them the tools to protect themselves and let them grow up
to
| > make their own decisions and mistakes.
| >
| > BTW the government had the information to protect us BEFORE 911 and did
not
| > make use of it.  Likewise if the system put in place to protect the
airlines
| > was doing it's job perhaps they would not have boarded the aircraft.
| >
| > As to the event not being anticipated I believe there was a fictional
novel
| > by Tom Clancy about a lone terrorist who destroyed the Capital with a
fully
| > fueled 747.
| >
| > As for me and mine I'm more concerned about the real and eminent risk in
our
| > community.  And to that end I'm ever vigilant.  I'm from New Orleans and
| > have decades of experience with hurricanes.  Our family took all
practical
| > precautions to get out of harms way yet I lost two close family members
and
| > a few from my extended family as a result of that storm.  BTW the
government
| > had a very clear warning that it was coming yet still screwed the pouch
in
| > the handling of the matter.
| >
| > Recall the old saw "Trust me I'm from the government and I'm here to
| > help/protect you"
| >
| > I'm a bit P.O.ed right now as I've been fighting for 4 months to get
this
| > Medicare Drug program set up for my family. Despite my being in the
system
| > for more than 60 years the system:
| > a) doesn't know my name
| > b) doesn't know where I live
| > c) doesn't know my wife's name a SSN
| > d) doesn't know my phone number
| >
| > Information all of which was contained in the letter they sent me (at
the
| > address the system cannot ID) containing instructions, user name and
pass
| > words to access the system.
| >
| > If they can't find me when I'm out in the open do you really expect them
to
| > find a terrorist who's doing his best to stay hidden?
|
| Sometimes we know who 'they' are, but are powerless to do anything
| against them because of the 'laws of the land'.  In order to catch them
| and hold them you need proof absolute which can be hard to get if you
| are not allowed to violate their rights.  Even criminals have rights.

yet you would give up the rights of WeThePeople in the bargain for some
illusion of increased safety/security?

| If it is so damn hard to find criminals, don't you think that anything
| that gains a slight advantage would help.



| It was a hurricane that caused all the destruction in N.O.
| How would have felt if that had been a 'dirty bomb',
| You wouldn't be returning home so soon after than one.
| You wouldn't be mourning the loss of a few, it would be 1000's.
| You'd know that future generations would suffer the consequences of the
| 'fallout'.
|
| What else can we do to help the fight to find them?
| Perhaps me 'supporting' (now semi-supporting), the use of phone call
| analysis? Perhaps we should ask what else can we do? What can we tell
| out governments that we want to happen?

It's called due process.  Something this administration is adamantly against
to the extent that when due process would be easier they go the hard road.