Re: Death penalty

>> Wow, the life of a guilty murderer is more worthy of protection than that of
>> a man/woman doing a job.
>
>>Mike, you're not this stupid.<
>
> Obviously I am in your arrogant and enlightened opinion.  But I'm fine with
> that.

Nobody here said or implied that the life of a murderer is "more
worthy of protection" than anyone else. Introducing a ludicrous
argument that nobody has made is unhelpful.

>> I don't know why either of you inject money into this equation when I have
>> explicitly ruled it out as a factor in my support of it.  As far as I'm
>> concerned the money argument is a straw man.
>
>>You didn't rule it out in your initial post, which is what I responded to.<
>
> And this wasn't a response to you.

You said "either of you," so I assumed I was the other person.

> Besides I never used the economic argument
> in favor of it so your use of it was a straw man.

It wasn't a "straw man." You might recall that I brought it up and
*conceded* it. Seems like an awful waste of a straw man, doesn't it?

At any rate, I've not accused you of using the argument. I'm the one
who brought it up, in order to brush it off the table so it wouldn't
come up later.

>> >From a faith standpoint, I can't support anything that puts vengeance in
>> the hands of human beings.<
>>
>> You keep saying it is vengeance.  I will keep saying it is not.
>
>>I'm afraid you'll have to do better than "saying it."<
>
> I see.  And that only works for when I'm saying something?

Er, no. I've already explained why it amounts to vengeance. You've yet
to explain what other purpose it serves.

>> Yes humans are a fallible, we wouldn't have to punish criminals if we
>> weren't.  But the criminal removes the possibility of grace in his/her life
>> when he/she chooses to take the life of another will malice and without
>> justification or mitigating factors.
>
>>You don't get to determine when God's grace is finished. To be so
> presumptuous is not only terrifying, but contemptible. It's truly
> difficult for me to imagine greater hubris. God commanded you not to
> murder, and you're going to demand that He step aside while we exact
> our vengeance? Count me out, please.<
>
> So you get to speak for God, but I don't.

How am I "speaking for God," please?

>> Are you against the use of deadly force in self defense for the same
>> reason?
>
>>Of course. Make your position clear, please: does our obedience to God
> end where our lives are endangered?<
>
> Again your willingness to speak for God, especially as it pertains to me is
> rather disconcerting.  Not only would you choose pacifism but you would force
> that choice on me.  (Talking about the self-defense aspect).

You're leaping to all *sorts* of conclusions today. At what point did
I say I would force my choice on you?

> Give me one scintilla of evidence that defending oneself is disobedient to God.

Matthew 5:39 is a good place to start the discussion. We should
clarify, however. You've changed your language from "use of deadly
force in self-defense" to "defending oneself." I have no objection to
defending oneself. I have objection to use of deadly force.

> And didn't you say you would call the police to aid you in a crime situation?
> IF, please note the if, you are against self defense but would call the police
> to aid you during a crime, knowing that calling the police may involve their use
> of deadly force, (don't make the bullshit argument that it doesn't - they carry
> guns are empowered to use deadly force, even in situations where a civilian
> might be prohibited from doing so), you are engaging in a most despicable form
> of moral cowardice.  In essence you are asking another to do your dirty work for
> you and that is reprehensible.

Yeah, you've made this argument before, and it still doesn't hold any
water. If a burgler breaks into my house and the cops come and *kill*
him, I'd be rather upset, and so would lots of other people.

-- 
-pcg
 [email protected]

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