Re: The price of the new American virtue

FWIW, I get exactly what you are saying about democracy - it is a retail 
word used to describe a free society.  Sorry if I came across as nitpicking.

From what I've been reading the stuff that is happening in Egypt gives me 
hope for all of us.  They couldn't shut down the internet completely - 
Egypt's geeks were hacking and getting info out.  Information is the most 
valuable commodity the people have and if this proves that govts are 
ultimately incapable of completely shutting it down so much the better.

I know there are some risks involved in who could come to power, but I get 
the sense that the protestors are just as wary of a religious/sharia top 
down govt. as they are of Mubarak's thugocracy.  I think the right wing in 
this country is reading the situation all wrong and jumping to conclusions 
without compelling evidence.  And that is doing damage to our relations with 
the people in Egypt and probably the Arab street.  If the US isn't standing 
up for freedom and democracy what is the point of all our talk about 
freedom.

I suppose there is a bit of US exceptionalism in that but I do believe that 
in spite of a lot of anti-american rhetoric the ideal, if not the land, of 
America is a beacon of hope for much of the oppressed world.

I will differ with you on Israel though.  They have fair reason to distrust 
the Arab world, it is unfortunate but it is true.  '67 and '72 aren't 
figments of their imagination.  That being said I think they would have been 
better remaining silent on the whole affair.  I suspect it was a bit of a 
swipe at Obama though - sort of a "You want to push us, fine, but here's a 
glimpse of reality if we are hung out to dry by your policies."

Mike F.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Lance McLain
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 9:35 AM
To: DADL (off topic)
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] The price of the new American virtue


On Feb 6, 2011, at 12:47 AM, Karl Swenson wrote:

>> One is that Hitler was democratically elected himself.
>
> Of course that was a democracy turning into a dictatorship, not a
> dictatorship turning into a democracy.  So it probably applies more to
> the US than to Egypt.
>
> ***huh?  How does that follow.  America was never a dictatorship.   Or are
> you county its time as a colony?  That was not strictly speaking a
> dictatorship was it?

I think you misunderstand.  I'm saying Egypt is a dictatorship turning
(hopefully) into a democracy.  America is a democracy turning
(hopefully not) into a dictatorship.
The Hitler analogy probably applies more to America than to Egypt.

> I think that Democracy usually occurs organically from the people, or
> a sect of people, rather than handed down to the people via dictats
> from a ruler.
>
> **well, that depends.  Some dictatorship have elections all the time.

That are nothing but elaborate PR stunts to justify their
dictatorship, not a true democracy.
Can you name me a case of a dictator instituting reforms himself and
implementing democracy?  I don't think that is a typical path to
democracy.  And it certainly isn't one I can trust, especially in this
case when said dictator is shooting protestors in the streets,
arresting journalists and promoting a Goebbels style media campaign.
(OK, nevermind the Hitler analogy again), you know what I mean.

(Also, can we avoid the details of the definition of a democracy
versus a republic versus other western liberal forms of gov't.  I'm
using the word democracy loosely to refer to governments that get
their consent from the people in some fashion.)

regards,
-Lance



-- 
dadl-ot mailing list
http://mail.thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot 


-- 
dadl-ot mailing list
http://mail.thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot