Bono: Grace over Karma

http://www.thepoachedegg.net/the-poached-egg/2010/09/bono-interview-grace-over-karma.html
Bono Interview: Grace Over Karma

            (Excerpt from the book *Bono: In Conversation with Michka
Assayas*<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573223093?ie=UTF8&tag=thepoaegg-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1573223093>
)

*[image: Bono_Rose_Colored_Glasses]<http://www.thepoachedegg.net/Bono_Rose_Colored_Glasses.jpg>
Bono*: My understanding of the Scriptures has been made simple by the person
of Christ. Christ teaches that God is love. What does that mean? What it
means for me: a study of the life of Christ. Love here describes itself as a
child born in straw poverty, the most vulnerable situation of all, without
honor. I don't let my religious world get too complicated. I just kind of
go: Well, I think I know what God is. God is love, and as much as I respond
*[sighs]* in allowing myself to be transformed by that love and acting in
that love, that's my religion. Where things get complicated for me, is when
I try to live this love. Now that's not so easy.

*Assayas*: What about the God of the Old Testament? He wasn't so "peace and
love"?

*Bono*: There's nothing hippie about my picture of Christ. The Gospels paint
a picture of a very demanding, sometimes divisive love, but love it is. I
accept the Old Testament as more of an action movie: blood, car chases,
evacuations, a lot of special effects, seas dividing, mass murder, adultery.
The children of God are running amok, wayward. Maybe that's why they're so
relatable. But the way we would see it, those of us who are trying to figure
out our Christian conundrum, is that the God of the Old Testament is like
the journey from stern father to friend. When you're a child, you need clear
directions and some strict rules. But with Christ, we have access in a
one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of
worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the other
hand, we look across at a Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The
combination is what makes the Cross.

*Assayas*: Speaking of bloody action movies, we were talking about South and
Central America last time. The Jesuit priests arrived there with the gospel
in one hand and a rifle in the other.

*Bono*: I know, I know. Religion can be the enemy of God. It's often what
happens when God, like Elvis, has left the building. *[laughs]* A list of
instructions where there was once conviction; dogma where once people just
did it; a congregation led by a man where once they were led by the Holy
Spirit. Discipline replacing discipleship. Why are you chuckling?

*Assayas*: I was wondering if you said all of that to the Pope the day you
met him.

*Bono*: Let's not get too hard on the Holy Roman Church here. The Church has
its problems, but the older I get, the more comfort I find there. The
physical experience of being in a crowd of largely humble people, heads
bowed, murmuring prayers, stories told in stained-glass windows

*Assayas*: So you won't be critical.

*Bono*: No, I can be critical, especially on the topic of contraception. But
when I meet someone like Sister Benedicta and see her work with AIDS orphans
in Addis Ababa, or Sister Ann doing the same in Malawi, or Father Jack
Fenukan and his group Concern all over Africa, when I meet priests and nuns
tending to the sick and the poor and giving up much easier lives to do so, I
surrender a little easier.

*Assayas*: But you met the man himself. Was it a great experience?

*Bono*: [W]e all knew why we were there. The Pontiff was about to make an
important statement about the inhumanity and injustice of poor countries
spending so much of their national income paying back old loans to rich
countries. Serious business. He was fighting hard against his Parkinson's.
It was clearly an act of will for him to be there. I was oddly moved by his
humility, and then by the incredible speech he made, even if it was in
whispers. During the preamble, he seemed to be staring at me. I wondered.
Was it the fact that I was wearing my blue fly-shades? So I took them off in
case I was causing some offense. When I was introduced to him, he was still
staring at them. He kept looking at them in my hand, so I offered them to
him as a gift in return for the rosary he had just given me.

*Assayas*: Didn't he put them on?

*Bono*: Not only did he put them on, he smiled the wickedest grin you could
ever imagine. He was a comedian. His sense of humor was completely intact.
Flashbulbs popped, and I thought: "Wow! The Drop the Debt campaign will have
the Pope in my glasses on the front page of every newspaper."

*Assayas*: I don't remember seeing that photograph anywhere, though.

*Bono*: Nor did we. It seems his courtiers did not have the same sense of
humor. Fair enough. I guess they could see the T-shirts.

*Later in the conversation:*
*Assayas*: I think I am beginning to understand religion because I have
started acting and thinking like a father. What do you make of that?

*Bono*: Yes, I think that's normal. It's a mind-blowing concept that the God
who created the universe might be looking for company, a real relationship
with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference
between Grace and Karma.

*Assayas*: I haven't heard you talk about that.

*Bono*: I really believe we've moved out of the realm of Karma into one of
Grace.

*Assayas*: Well, that doesn't make it clearer for me.

*Bono*: You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You
know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a
tooth, or in physics; in physical laws every action is met by an equal or an
opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the
universe. I'm absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called
Grace to upend all that "as you reap, so you will sow" stuff. Grace defies
reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your
actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot
of stupid stuff.

*Assayas*: I'd be interested to hear that.

*Bono*: That's between me and God. But I'd be in big trouble if Karma was
going to finally be my judge. I'd be in deep s---. It doesn't excuse my
mistakes, but I'm holding out for Grace. I'm holding out that Jesus took my
sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to
depend on my own religiosity.

*Assayas*: The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I
could believe in that.

*Bono*: But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that
God says: *Look, you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are,
to selfishness, and there's a mortality as part of your very sinful nature,
and, let's face it, you're not living a very good life, are you? There are
consequences to actions.* The point of the death of Christ is that Christ
took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to
us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That's the
point. It should keep us humbled . It's not our own good works that get us
through the gates of heaven.

*Assayas*: That's a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful,
even though it's close to lunacy, in my view. Christ has his rank among the
world's great thinkers. But Son of God, isn't that farfetched?

*Bono*: No, it's not farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the
Christ story always goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously a very
interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets,
be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't
allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook. Christ says: *No. I'm not
saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm a prophet.
I'm saying: "I'm the Messiah." I'm saying: "I am God incarnate."* And people
say: *No, no, please, just be a prophet. A prophet, we can take. You're a
bit eccentric. We've had John the Baptist eating locusts and wild honey, we
can handle that. But don't mention the "M" word! Because, you know, we're
gonna have to crucify you.* And he goes: *No, no. I know you're expecting me
to come back with an army, and set you free from these creeps, but actually
I am the Messiah.* At this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes,
and says: *Oh, my God, he's gonna keep saying this.* So what you're left
with is: either Christ was who He said He was the Messiah or a complete
nutcase. I mean, we're talking nutcase on the level of Charles Manson. This
man was like some of the people we've been talking about earlier. This man
was strapping himself to a bomb, and had "King of the Jews" on his head,
and, as they were putting him up on the Cross, was going: *OK, martyrdom,
here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it.* I'm not joking here. The idea
that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have
its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me, *that's*farfetched

Bono later says it all comes down to how we regard Jesus:

*Bono*: If only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be
transformed. When I look at the Cross of Christ, what I see up there is all
my s--- and everybody else's. So I ask myself a question a lot of people
have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was He just a
religious nut? And there it is, and that's the question. And no one can talk
you into it or out of it.



Johne Cook
| http://raygunrevival.com | http://authorculture.blogspot.com |

*“I am not responsible for actions of the imaginary version of me you have
inside your head.”
Attributed to Teresa Nielsen Hayden*

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