Re: Magic Menstrual Mummies

Let me try to clear up what bothered me so there is no further
misunderstanding.

First of all, I have no dog in the Francis/Franky dispute.  I hold no
special love for FS, nor do I have any derision.  I really do not know much
about the man.  I haven't followed Franky's complaints other than here.

The word ignorance itself is inded part of the problem.  As several have
noted, including me, the word is not literally pejorative.  The problem is
that many in society use it in a pejorative manner and it becomes an insult.
It is a fairly messy word, much like many others that are misused.

But it was only a small aspect of what concerned me.

I understand what you were saying in your post, that you feel that you were
raised ignorant of a lot of church history.  That is a sentiment that I also
discovered about myself, largely in part because of Mike Findlay in another
group, though he may not remember.

I was just like you. Though I was not raised that way by family, my church
from early childhood on was very much as you describe.  I got enlightened by
knowledge, that too much of what I had been taught was either limited or
based on inaccurate teachings.  I was shocked and I was dismayed.

And I learned.  I traveled a road from Baptist to Charismatic to 4 Square to
Catholicism to where I am now.  What I discovered was that in all of those
houses there existed exactly what I started with, an ignorance of the
broader aspects of faith outside their doors, an absolute surety of
rightness (not righteousness) of doctrine and in most cases a view of other
Christian faiths that was either contemptuous, pitying or superior; or a
combination of all. 

I first ran across it at Boeing when I found a bible study during lunch and
the 'leaders' were a Hank Hanegraaff devotee.  When told I was attending a
Charismatic church I was informed casually and almost offhand that I wasn't
a real Christian, I was worshipping a different Jesus, one of Hank's
signature lines.

The arrogance of that pronouncement astounded me.  They knew nothing of me,
of my faith and of my church's faith.  Based solely on a thin description I
was condemned.

I later came to realize that there were doctrinal issues at that church, but
those were localized to the sect and mostly due to the pastor.   But I also
cannot doubt that my return to Christianity is in part due to that church.
They were heavy hitters and I needed that then.

I eventually ended up at the catholic's doors and liked it a lot, but still
had some issues with the doctrine.   So here I sit.

The point of this narrative is that I am admittedly sensitive to arrogance
and presumption.  Your comments about ignorance were secondary, my real burr
in my butt was the tone of the whole presentation, the implied plight of the
poor ignorant people who have not tuned in to the reality of Christianity
and the likewise implied suggestion that you ahd.

Maybe you have a deeper walk, and if so, I am happy, truly glad.  

But understand, that is anecdotal.  That is your experience and I do not
doubt your sincerity, nor do I doubt that many concur.  

But the charismatics say the same thing.  So do many Evangelicals, so do
Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and so do Catholics.

And all of them are happy to point out the flaw in the other that proves
they don't 'get it'.

I find no use for it.  My grandmother died a few years ago.  She devoted the
later part of her life around the time my grandfather died to her church,
prayed daily and tried to raise her children right.  She always prayed in
the name of her Lord and savior Jesus who died for her sins.  And according
to many, she is in Hell now as her church was LDS, and that was a Different
JesusR.

I also visited my old Baptist church last year, first time there in 30 years
I think.  It is not a Baptist, more of a seeker friendly modern evangelical.
And greeting me at the door was the same exact woman who did when I was in
the 4th grade, Sharon M.   She was still there, still loving Jesus, and
still serving God.  Who am I to tell her that she does not have a real
understanding of God?  I think she has a better understanding than most.
But I doubt you would get too far from the evangelical talking points about
Catholics.

So yea, I am sensitive.  I am sensitive to people who make broad sweeping
judgments about other people's faith because frankly that is the most
presumptuous kind of judgment.  

I felt your comments did that and I was willing to assume it was
unintentional.

So yes, IMHO, you come across as arrogant to me.  That's just how I feel.

It does not in any way change my respect for you and I do not see why we
should be afraid or prohibited to discuss it.


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lance McLain
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 4:09 PM
To: DADL (off topic)
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Magic Menstrual Mummies

Might I politely suggest replacing all my Uses of the word "ignorant" with
"lacking knowledge or awareness, uneducated"?  Karl, Does that help?

My beliefs are what they are.  I'm not going to change them because others
find them arrogant, but only because they are wrong.

Regards,
-Lance

Sent from my iPhone

On May 24, 2011, at 5:47 PM, Bruce Geerdes <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 4:06 PM, Karl Swenson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>>  "Are you saying that you think you're better than I am?"
>>> 
>>> ***which he clearly does as he is so enlightened.
>> 
>> So what! Aren't we all allowed to choose a path for our lives that we
think
>> is best?
>> 
>> ***of course.  I do think however that mutual respect suggests that we
might
>> not want to call each other idiots because of the different paths we
chose.
> 
> This is what's frustrating. No one has called anyone an idiot! Yet you
> have attached that as a subtext to what someone's said.
> 
> You did the same thing when you asked if I was calling you an
> "unbeliever", thus implying I think you're a bad person, going to
> hell, who knows what else is in your head. Stop it!
> 
>> Why do you feel the need to yell over at people on other paths how
arrogant
>> they are?
>> 
>> ***Because arrogance is wrong.
> 
> There are a lot of wrong things out there. But in the interest of
> politeness, I'm asking you to keep your opinion of people's arrogance
> to yourself.
> 
>> Could we just drop the arrogance and "holier-than-thou" accusations?
>> 
>> ***Um, no.  If I feel someone tone is needlessly arrogant, I will say so.
> 
> I'm asking you to stop.
> 
>> If you disagree, feel free to do so, but how dare you tell me to suppress
my
>> feelings because they make you all butt hurt or something.
> 
> *I* dare because I host this stupid list on my dollar. How dare *you*
> disrespect me, your host, in this manner?
> 
>> ***And it has, frankly, had the effect of souring me for the Orthodox
faith,
>> frankly.  Someone mentioned how evangelicals drive people away.  So,
>> apparently, do Orthodox.
> 
> Another good reason to shut down the list as far as I'm concerned. God
> forgive me.
> 
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